[stylist] dividing blind people into groups

Mon Mar 17 23:29:42 UTC 2014

You can KNIT ;your own, DONNA, I know you are an expert knitter!  Lynda
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Applebutter Hill" <applebutterhill at gmail.com>
To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2014 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups


> I'll comission you to make one using cotton yarn. *grin*
> Donna
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lynda 
> Lambert
> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 6:10 AM
> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>
> I do not want to be in a plastic bin! Hmmmm, what are my options? Make my
> bin out of soft fiber, in fact, I can knit my own bin. I'll do it in
> luscious yarns of orange, yellow, and pinks.  Yes, I'll felt it to give it
> stability and I'll make a nice lid for it. Oh, certainly, I'll do 
> encrusted
> beadworking all over it. It has to be a bin that is glitzy and sparkly, 
> soft
> and warm, and smart looking. Nice to the touch! Yes, a succulent bin will 
> be
> just perfect! One with no labels on it at all.
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Applebutter Hill" <applebutterhill at gmail.com>
> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 9:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>
>
>> Are they plastic bins? Do they come with lids? Can I pick my favorite
>> color?
>> *grin*
>> Donna
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Atty Rose
>> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 3:29 PM
>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>>
>> Put us into bins, I loved that visual!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jacobson, Shawn D" <Shawn.D.Jacobson at hud.gov>
>> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 2:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>>
>>
>>> What I remember from the braille school was that there was a pecking
>>> order
>>
>>> by how much you could see.  The high partials were generally on top with
>>> the totally blind on the bottom.  When we had mobility training there
>>> were
>>
>>> the totally blind (Rams) and the partially sighted (Ramblers) and they
>>> were in different classes for our mobility milers contest.
>>>
>>> And then there were the religious differences (mostly Catholic or
>>> Protestant or Jewish).
>>>
>>> Point being, sighted folk will put us into bins according to their own
>>> tastes.
>>>
>>> Shawn
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Atty Rose
>>> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 2:46 PM
>>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>>> Subject: [stylist] dividing blind people into groups
>>>
>>> I really don't think I can add anything to Donna's remarks, she said it
>>> so
>>
>>> well. I just want to say that there is power in numbers. I am one of
>>> those
>>
>>> who write letters and call my senators and congress-people.  Sometimes
>>> when we feel isolated we can feel like we're the only ones, but there is
>>> a
>>
>>> whole vast group of visually impaired people. And even though we don't
>>> always
>>> agree   with one another, we don't have to to stand by one another.
>>>
>>> Perhaps we have issues with the NFB, but here we are on their list
>>> talking
>>
>>> to people who care about what we say.
>>>
>>> And if they sent out a notice to call our reps, I'd be dialing away.
>>>
>>> Change takes time and Scheril is right about fighting for it. Sometimes
>>> we
>>
>>> have to take a rest from the battle. I'm resting right now on the NFB
>>> rights thing. I am fortunate to belong to a blind group that doesn't 
>>> care
>>> what you see, what your philosaphies are or your life preferences and so
>>> I
>>
>>> feel content doing all I can for them.
>>>
>>> The time will come for us to gather a group and approach the upper
>>> eshilons of the NFB and speak up again. Maybe we're down but never out.
>>>
>>> Life is one long adventure!
>>> Atty
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
>>> To: "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 11:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>
>>>
>>>> Very eloquently said.
>>>>
>>>> Bridgit
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Applebutter Hill
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 11:31 AM
>>>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thea,
>>>> I understand your perspective, but I disagree with dividing us up into
>>>> sub-groups. All of the examples you gave are still viewed as blind by
>>>> the general public. Even more importantly, we are already the smallest
>>>> minority; we are what is referred to as a "low-incidence disability.
>>>> Because of this and the geographic separation, we are already in a
>>>> position of not posing much of a threat to the public. We aren't out
>>>> there protesting regularly, sitting in or even (though I don't 
>>>> recommend
>>>> this ) throwing rocks. When the calls come for us to write letters to
>>>> our elected officials, sign petitions and the like, a very small
>>>> percentage of us actually take action (even if you limit it to the NFB
>>>> membership). I know for certain that the subset that is willing to take
>>>> the time out of their busy days to sign a petition, put notices on
>>>> social media, call Congress, etc. is a diversified group that includes
>>>> every category you mention. Dividing ourselves is suicide.
>>>>
>>>> Also, we are essentially expendable, easily overlooked and our issues
>>>> are at the bottom of the pecking order when it comes to social change.
>>>>
>>>> The goal is to live in a world where blindness is no more of a barrier
>>>> than blonde hair. But, I don't think there are many blind activists who
>>>> believe that a person can transition from fully sighted to blind 
>>>> without
>>>> a significant input of work, dedication and perseverance. There is also
>>>> the shock value of those kind of proclamations, which is how everyone
>>>> else does it. And, the fact that we are discriminated against and that
>>>> the world isn't opening its arms to welcome us doesn't diminish the
>>>> truth that, given the proper training and a can-do attitude, blind
>>>> people can and do flourish despite the barriers imposed by a foolish
>>>> public. Donna
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miss 
>>>> Thea
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 2:48 AM
>>>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>>
>>>> How the blue blazes can a non-disabled person test for anything
>>>> regarding the blind, or any other disability? What are people smoking
>>>> these days? Would you, as a blind person, offer to test for a deaf-user
>>>> product? Of course you wouldn't. Some people blame certain things on 
>>>> the
>>>> militant blind, saying they're the ones who made it difficult for the
>>>> rest of us. If blindness is no more than a nuisance, or a 
>>>> characteristic
>>>> like blond hair, well then, it follows. People with blond hair don't 
>>>> use
>>>> different technology, so if blindness is truly a mere characteristic
>>>> like blond hair, as I've heard at the only NFB convention I ever went
>>>> to, then why should it change? We don't need anything. We're rough,
>>>> tough, independent blind people. Right?
>>>>
>>>> I've always considered blindness a major disability. The day it becomes
>>>> a mere nuisance or a characteristic like blond hair will be the day 
>>>> when
>>>> I can get any job, use any computer, drive a car, read any type of 
>>>> print
>>>> including hand writing, and so forth. Till that day, and especially 
>>>> with
>>>> websites going backwards instead of forwards, I'm afraid I disagree 
>>>> with
>>>> our more militant friends. I'm not a rough, tough, young independent
>>>> blind person. I'm on the sunny side of 50, have illnesses and 
>>>> conditions
>>>> not related to blindness, and frankly, I'm having trouble keeping up
>>>> with all the changes. I'm doing my best, but the last Windows I liked
>>>> was Windows XP. Not only do I remember text-based DOS and the text
>>>> adventure games I so much enjoyed, (as an adult in her late twenties), 
>>>> I
>>>> remember when there were no such things as computers. I remember when
>>>> the most exciting thing I experienced was the Optacon and the talking
>>>> calculator. I remember the Braille I read in the 70's, and have no idea
>>>> why they need to unify the whole darn Braille code.
>>>>
>>>> Gays and lesbians for instance, gained the right to marry and put their
>>>> spouse under their health insurance at work, and be the next of kin 
>>>> when
>>>> an emergency happened, and now have many rights they didn't when I was
>>>> growing up, because they fought for the same things, and they fought in
>>>> force. One of the complaints I've heard is that the blind community is
>>>> too busy fighting among themselves and spending their energies whining,
>>>> etc. The problem with blindness is that it's a continuum, not just one
>>>> condition. Let's say Al's totally blind, never so much as seen light,
>>>> while Tyler sees light and shadows and therefore probably has better
>>>> mobility. Tessa can see enough to read large print, while Bill can do
>>>> everything but drive. That's all lumped under the general category of
>>>> blindness. Oh, then there's blind-plus. I.E. Lucy's deaf-blind,
>>>> Samantha's partially blind and partially deaf, and Tiny Tim there, not
>>>> only uses a wheelchair but is stone cold blind. How does one community
>>>> address all these needs? Why should the guy who can do everything but
>>>> drive care about the guy who's never so much as seen light? These men
>>>> perceive the world totally differently, and their needs are different. 
>>>> I
>>>> think lumping everyone into the "blindness" community may be filling a
>>>> small boat with more people than it can handle. I propose the idea that
>>>> there is a blind community, a partially sighted community, and a
>>>> blind-plus community. The blind community would comprise totals and
>>>> those who have so little vision, it's not useful to them. Anyway, if we
>>>> could sort ourselves out, decide what we need, and go after it in 
>>>> force,
>>>> we could end up getting what we want, couldn't we? Sure, there are more
>>>> LGBT people than there are blind people, but I'm sure the LGBT 
>>>> community
>>>> had to work out differences, too. Bisexuals had different needs than
>>>> transgenders, etc. Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. 
>>>> Thea
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Bridgit Pollpeter
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:15 AM
>>>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>>
>>>> Donna,
>>>>
>>>> I never thought of this but you're absolutely correct. Buildings 
>>>> legally
>>>> must have so many accessible entrances and bathrooms, but when it comes
>>>> to blind accessibility, it's often lacking. Why are legal standards
>>>> expected for one disability but not another? Websites and technology
>>>> should have to adhere to certain standards, and yes, actual blind users
>>>> should be the testers. I get so tired of non-disabled people doing the
>>>> work, not thinking they need people with a given disability to test,
>>>> comment and assist.
>>>>
>>>> Bridgit
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Applebutter Hill
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 4:19 PM
>>>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jim,
>>>> I know what you mean. Getting the most out of our screen readers is a
>>>> lot of hard work, because every site is different. It can be
>>>> exceptionally frustrating to spend hours trying to get something done
>>>> that we know a sighted person can do in ten minutes. Nevertheless, it 
>>>> is
>>>> what it is, and it's possible to get a lot further than many screen
>>>> reader users get. I get aggravated when blind people ask me to provide
>>>> them with a web address, when they can Google it in the same amount of
>>>> time as I can. It feels sometimes like they don't realize that I had to
>>>> go through the same grueling and aggravating process they are trying to
>>>> avoid to get the knowledge I have and that I have to continue 
>>>> struggling
>>>> every day despite the stress of it, because it's the only way I can get
>>>> anywhere.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, people who want to build a hospital want their
>>>> building to be accessible to everyone too, and they don't know how to 
>>>> do
>>>> it either. The difference is that the architects of brick and mortor
>>>> facilities have to meet standards which are scrutinized by licensing
>>>> officials prior to one brick being laid. Website designers, whose jobs
>>>> involve putting 1s and0s in the right places, are on their own. They
>>>> either don't consider accessibility or they hire someone to test the
>>>> accessibility who is not a user of the adaptive software on a regular
>>>> basis. It's difficult to force yourself to not notice things if you can
>>>> see them, and difficult to be conscious of when your sight has
>>>> influenced something you do with the screen reader. IMO, websites 
>>>> should
>>>> be tested for accessibility by blind people and some of them should 
>>>> have
>>>> average screen reader skills.
>>>>
>>>> Also, there are other accessibility issues in addition to screen
>>>> readers. Sites need to work for people using magnification and voice
>>>> recognition as well. Donna
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Homme,
>>>> James
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 8:16 AM
>>>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I do accessibility work a lot. In my experience, most people want to
>>>> make their stuff accessible. They just don't know what accessibility 
>>>> is,
>>>> or how it affects people with disabilities. Most people assume,
>>>> naturally enough, that whoever wants to can simply just use their 
>>>> stuff.
>>>> And one of my pet peeves is when someone who should know how to use
>>>> their screen reader better complains that something is inaccessible,
>>>> because they don't want to take the time to use the help available to
>>>> them. We make ourselves look bad when this happens.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry. I'm a little cranky today. I need to do my journaling.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miss 
>>>> Thea
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:43 PM
>>>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>>
>>>> Think I'll document my experiences with Triond on my new blog, then
>>>> spread it on Social Media like butter on bread. Hahahaha. Thea
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Atty Rose
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 11:33 AM
>>>> To: Writer's Division Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>>
>>>> Hi Thea,
>>>>
>>>> Welcome. I get so frustrated when this happens. If writing letters 
>>>> isn't
>>>> working and there is no phone, all you can do really put a claim 
>>>> against
>>>> them, or have all your blind friends write them too. I always write a
>>>> letter if I run into issues. Even if nothing happens I stand up for our
>>>> comunity. Sometimes it works great! Sometimes I get nothing back.
>>>>
>>>> All you can do is your best!
>>>>
>>>> Well met,
>>>> Atty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Miss Thea" <thearamsay at rogers.com>
>>>> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 3:45 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Donna.
>>>>> There is a place where you can upload photos, but it is still
>>>>> inaccessible, as you have to drag and drop images.
>>>>>
>>>>> All I want is my name in print--a hardcover or paperback with my John
>>>>> Hancock and a great story inside, that people can get lost in. I don't
>>>>
>>>>> mind doing the work; I don't mind doing hard work. But I DO mind
>>>>> wasting my time, and there's not even a way for me to express my
>>>>> displeasure by cancelling my account. I guess I could just let it go,
>>>>> and concentrate on the things I can do, which is why I'm here. Nice to
>>>>
>>>>> meet you, too. Thea
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Applebutter Hill
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 8:11 PM
>>>>> To: 'Writer's Division Mailing List'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Thea,
>>>>> Welcome to Stylist. I wrote for a bunch of online magazines for years,
>>>>
>>>>> but not this one. I'm thinking of a couple of things.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, what would a person do if they had their own photos? Is there
>>>>> an uploader? It seems bogus that they would force people to pick and
>>>>> choose from stock photos and not have an option to upload photos of
>>>>> their
>>>> own.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm saying this, because, if there is an uploader that you can use,
>>>>> there are sites where you can get free, high quality photos that you
>>>>> could download and then upload to this site. The captions are usually
>>>>> clear enough to get the idea what the photo is, and as long as you
>>>>> credit the photographer or the group, you can use them without fear.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as your efforts to bring this to the attention of the site go,
>>>>> it is something we need to do, but it rarely results in positive
>>>>> changes. I used to write for Suite 101, which had revenue sharing and
>>>>> required a photo with each article. It was accessible until they re
>>>>> designed their site. I wrote to them many times, and I was assured
>>>>> that accessibility was a priority for them. They even asked me to do
>>>>> beta testing on the new site, which I did. Nothing ever changed.
>>>>> Ultimately they dropped their journalistic standards, such as they
>>>>> were, and at that point, I really wasn't interested in writing for
>>>>> them anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Suite 101 is a Canadian company, so they don't fall under our laws.
>>>>> But, the laws we have in the US are not being enforced even on
>>>>> government websites. The irony to me was that when Suite 101 started
>>>>> becoming less accessible, I was in the midst of writing a series of
>>>>> articles on web accessibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, it's nice to meet you, and I look forward to getting to know
>>>>> you. Donna
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: stylist [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Miss
>>>>> Thea
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 5:36 PM
>>>>> To: stylist at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: [stylist] Thea, New Kid
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, everyone.
>>>>> I'm Thea, I just joined the list, and I write all kinds of stuff:
>>>>> fiction, nonfiction, and fan fiction. I guess that about covers it,
>>>>> eh? I used to publish articles and short stories on www.triond.com but
>>>>
>>>>> they require an image with each submission. I had sighted help for a
>>>>> while, but once the sighted help disappeared, I found I could not use
>>>>> this site because of its image requirement. It's not a Captcha I have
>>>>> to fill in. This site requires, along with the article, your selection
>>>>
>>>>> of a category, which you can choose from a combo
>>>>> box: health, news, politics, women ... Then after the body of your
>>>>> article, you add tags. Let's say you've chosen "women". Your tags
>>>>> could be birth control, birth control devices, IUD, etc. Then there's
>>>>> a question mark where a chosen image should go. You hit the "get image
>>>>
>>>>> suggestions" button, and images are supposed to present themselves.
>>>>> At this time, you have to be able to see the image and drag it to the
>>>>> question mark.
>>>>> Last but not least, you have to check the box that says you are the
>>>>> original creator of this work, and click submit.
>>>>> Piece o' cake ... if you can see.
>>>>> Has anyone ever tried or found some way around this difficulty?
>>>>> The site is www.triond.com
>>>>> My emails to them about this barrier have netted me no response.
>>>>> The site is free, and supposedly, you can create a following, if
>>>>> you're prolific enough, and you can earn money, be it ever so small.
>>>>> I don't mind that. I DO mind this inaccessibility, and the company's
>>>>> apparent lack of interest.
>>>>> Anyone ever tried this www.triond.com
>>>>> While I had sighted help, I published articles and stories, so I have
>>>>> a small portfolio if you like.
>>>>> Now the sighted help is gone, and I'm stuck.
>>>>> Any help appreciated,
>>>>> Thea
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Writers Division web site
>>>>> http://writers.nfb.org/
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>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Writers Division web site
>>>>> http://writers.nfb.org/
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>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Writers Division web site
>>>>> http://writers.nfb.org/
>>>>> stylist mailing list
>>>>> stylist at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> t
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/shawn.d.jacobson%40hud.
>> gov
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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