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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If the new state plan and executive order go
through even these sorts of safe guards will be destroyed. This is long but very
important about the role of the MCB board to make final agency determinations.
This is a quasi judicial role.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The conflict of interest that is clear and simple
to understand is that Mike zimmer who heads the MichiganAdministrative Hearing
System also under his revised state plan will also make the final agency
decision on disputed cases brought before MAHS.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If folks don't see the inherent conflicts that are
grossly illegal and violate the Michigan Constitution then I don't know what the
heck a conflict of interest is.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joe</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: center; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 210.0pt right 420.0pt"
align=center><FONT face="Courier New"><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State
w:st="on"><B>Michigan</B></st1:State></st1:place><B> Commission for the Blind
Hearing Held at:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></B></FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: center; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"
align=center><FONT face="Courier New"><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address
w:st="on"><B>201 North Washington
Square</B></st1:address></st1:Street><B><o:p></o:p></B></FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: center; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"
align=center><FONT face="Courier New"><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on"><B>Lansing</B></st1:City><B>, <st1:State
w:st="on">Michigan</st1:State></B></st1:place><B> <o:p></o:p></B></FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-ALIGN: center; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"
align=center><B><FONT face="Courier New">Tuesday, July 19,
2011<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New">RE:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Special
Commission Meeting<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><FONT
face="Courier New">__________________________________________________________/</FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New">APPEARANCES:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><FONT
face="Courier New">MCB Commissioners Present </FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 3.0in right 420.0pt"><FONT
face="Courier New">via Telephone:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</SPAN><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Mr. Larry
Posont<o:p></o:p></B></FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 3">
</SPAN>Mr. John Scott<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 3">
</SPAN>Ms. <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Lydia</st1:place></st1:country-region> Schuck<SPAN
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><FONT
face="Courier New">MCB Staff:<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN><B>Mr. Pat Cannon<o:p></o:p></B></FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 2">
</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</SPAN>Ms. Constance Zanger<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Ms. Sue Luzenski<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Mr. James Hull<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 2">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><FONT
face="Courier New">Guests/Attendees </FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 3.0in right 420.0pt"><FONT
face="Courier New">via Telephone:<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</SPAN><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">Mr. Joe
Harcz<o:p></o:p></B></FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 210.0pt 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 4">
</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-weight: bold">Mr. Fred
Wurtzel<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 210.0pt 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 4">
</SPAN>Mr. Greg Keathley<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 210.0pt 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 4">
</SPAN>Mr. Dave Robinson<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 210.0pt 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 4">
</SPAN>Mr. Dennis Raterink<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 210.0pt 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 4">
</SPAN>Mr. Joe Sontag<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 210.0pt 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 4">
</SPAN>Ms. Sheila Stelmach<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 210.0pt 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 4">
</SPAN>Mr. Scott Armstrong<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 210.0pt 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 4">
</SPAN>Mr. Tom Warren<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 210.0pt 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 4">
</SPAN>Ms. Susan Przekop-Shaw<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 2">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 3.0in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 3.0in right 420.0pt"><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 2">
</SPAN><B><o:p></o:p></B></FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><B><FONT
face="Courier New">TRANSCRIBED BY:<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>REGENCY COURT REPORTING<o:p></o:p></FONT></B></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 2">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">3133 Union Lake
Road</st1:address></st1:Street>, Suite A</FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 204.0pt right 420.0pt"><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 3">
</SPAN><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Commerce Township</st1:City>,
<st1:State w:st="on">MI</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">48382</st1:PostalCode></st1:place></FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in 204.0pt right 420.0pt"><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>(248) 360-2145<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><FONT face="Courier New">TABLE OF CONTENTS</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: 200%; tab-stops: right 426.0pt"><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</SPAN>PAGE</FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><U><FONT
face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></U></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><FONT
face="Courier New"><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State
w:st="on">Michigan</st1:State></st1:place> Commission for the Blind Hearing<SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1">
</SPAN>3</FONT></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; tab-stops: .5in 1.25in right 420.0pt"><o:p><FONT
face="Courier New"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=TOC style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in"><FONT face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-field-code: ' fillin 'Type city where Deposition took place, i.e. 'Southfield':''">Lansing</SPAN>,
<st1:State w:st="on">Michigan</st1:State></FONT></P>
<P class=TOC style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Courier New"><SPAN
style="mso-tab-count: 1"> </SPAN>Tuesday, July 19, 2011
- <SPAN
style="mso-field-code: ' fillin 'Insert actual start time of Deposition, i.e. ɱ:50 p.m.'''">8:00
a.m.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=TOC style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Courier New">* * * * *</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Hello?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hello?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Darn, I'm not hearing anything.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hello?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hello?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hello?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hello?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Good morning.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
STELMACH:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hello.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hello?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
STELMACH:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hi, <st1:place
w:st="on">Constance</st1:place>.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>This is Sheila.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hi, Sheila.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
STELMACH:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>How are you?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Good.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>How about you?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
STELMACH:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Good.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>At the moment, just Sue Luzenski and I
here in the conference room.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So I'm
just going to put you on mute for a few minutes, okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
STELMACH:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes, ma'am.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All righty.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HARCZ:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hello?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Good morning.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HARCZ:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hi.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hi there.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HARCZ:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Who is this?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This is Constance
Zanger.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Am I speaking with Tom
Warren?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HARCZ:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>No.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Joe Harcz.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Joe Harcz.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm just in the conference room waiting
for the group here to assemble so I'm going to put the phone on mute.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Hello?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Now I'm not hearing
anybody.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hello?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Hello?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You're hearing
me?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'll just mute
myself.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Just sometimes when the master mute goes, I get blanked out.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You know, when it's switched from that
end?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Uh-huh.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>That's happened the last two teleconferences.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It doesn't last the whole thing but I
get like the Rosemary Woods, Nixon three missing minutes of
recording.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Uh-huh.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sue has her computer right here.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>(Inaudible) </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sue's not in here yet.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well, she's here.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>She left -- came in and said "Good
morning" to you.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
LUZENSKI:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- I wasn't here.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Are we -- </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Not -- yet.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>No.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sheila Stelmach is on the phone and Hoe
Harcz is on the phone.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
LUZENSKI:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don't know who else is on
the phone.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
LUZENSKI:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All right.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HULL:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Excuse me.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Hey, James.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HULL:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hello.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>How are --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>(Inaudible) </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>It's up to you.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HULL:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(Inaudible) </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>You want to --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hello?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Hello.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Good morning.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Who's here?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Who is this?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>John Scott.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Hey, John.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sue, Pat, James,
and Connie are in the room.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And I'm
not sure -- quite sure who is on the phone yet.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It's not quite 8:00 is it?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>No.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Not quite.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Because I got -- my watch
may be a little bit fast.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'll be
back in a minute.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm going to put
the phone -- still the code for silent?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Or mute it?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Yes, *6.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'll be back in just a minute.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Are there any other
commissioners on the line?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Is 231 -- </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>(Inaudible) </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Yeah, -- </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Looks like <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Traverse
City</st1:City></st1:place> area code. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Good morning.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Hello.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This is Tom Warren.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Great.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'll get you labeled.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>On my conference thing.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Thanks for the clarification. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>(Inaudible)<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Yes, --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>(Inaudible) </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>I did.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I wanted to talk to
you about that before we did that.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Yep.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I was counting on that.
</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Good morning.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Good morning.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Who is that?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is that
Larry?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This is Larry.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Great.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is everybody on?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>No.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don't think <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Lydia</st1:country-region></st1:place>
is on yet.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>John is on.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He stepped away for a minute.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>I received an E-mail from <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lydia</st1:country-region></st1:place>.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>She may be a few minutes late in joining
us.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hello?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Hello.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Is that you, John?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Larry is on the phone
but <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lydia</st1:country-region></st1:place> is not yet.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>She -- I read something last night that
she might be late.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hi.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This is <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lydia</st1:country-region></st1:place>.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Great.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hi there.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm here.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm on my cell, which isn't going to
last real long and I'm having problems with the landline conference.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So I'm walking in the hallway as I speak
to the lady who can hopefully hook up my phone for me, so -- but we can -- we
can go ahead and start if the Commissioners are there.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is Larry there?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yeah.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well, -- Larry?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Yeah.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He muted himself.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay, --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I had to un-mute my
line.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So I'm calling the meeting to
order.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Larry and John have just
asked me to chair this meeting.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And
I know the least about this so that's probably good.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I was about to step into an elevator
then I realized that would probably cut off the phone.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm still walking.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So,
first of all, roll call of the Commissioners.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I heard Larry and John and I'm
here.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And that would establish our
quorum.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">The
next thing would be to identify everybody who is in the room.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So can everybody on the call or in the
room there say who is here?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
LUZENSKI:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sue Luzenski is
here.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
CANNON:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Pat Cannon.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
ZANGER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Constance
Zanger.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HULL:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>James Hull.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>(Inaudible) </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This is Tom Warren from the
Attorney General's Office along with Dennis Raterink.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And he's an assistant of
yours or your boss or something?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>What is he?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yeah, what did you say, Mr.
Warren?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Mr. Raterink is my boss.
</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Oh, he really is.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And if Ms. Przekop-Shaw
arrives, she asked if she was going to -- she could -- in as well, but she's not
here yet.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well, thank you, Attorney General
Warren, for being with us.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Just one
second here.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm going to talk to
the person --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>There's more people on the phone to identify, so.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If they choose to.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
STELMACH:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sheila
Stelmach.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I can.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'll go back up and get my
notes and come down.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thanks.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That's okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All right.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So they're going to just get me squared
away with a different phone but I'm going to have to go back up and get my
notes.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">Has
everyone identified themselves then?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sheila Stelmach -- anybody
else?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SONTAG:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Joe Sontag is
here.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HARCZ:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Joe --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Hi, Joe.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HARCZ:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- is here.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SONTAG:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hi.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
ARMSTRONG:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- Armstrong.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Mr. Armstrong, are you the
person who took the facility in Grayling is it?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
ARMSTRONG:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>No, that's my brother,
--</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
ARMSTRONG:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Got it.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Anyone else?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HARCZ:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Joe Harcz if I'm not
muted.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Yep.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I've got you,
Joe.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HARCZ:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All right, -- </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>(Inaudible) </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>-- on the phone.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
ROBINSON:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Dave Robinson.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Anyone else?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm going up and down sets of stairs
here.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Being rather informal, I'm
sorry, but it's just the nature of the situation right this minute. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">Okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So we have
-- now I'm out of breath.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We have
Mr. Warren here from the Attorney General's Office to give us some enlightenment
about the possible -- whatever could come about as a result of the issues that
are coming before the Board.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">And
for me, just a little help on understanding the difference between an AG and an
ALJ would be helpful to start out.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- Administrative Law
Judge, and I'll refer to the person under the System as it existed when this
case was heard; worked -- State Office of Administrative Hearings and
Rules.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>His function or her function
is to serve as the hearings officer for contested cases, which are authorized
under Chapter 4 of the Administrative Procedures Act.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The Michigan Commission for the Blind
disputes, under Rule 56, incorporate the Administrative Procedures Act for
contested cases. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">Therefore what happens is if the matter is not resolved
administratively or informally, then a formal hearing is held.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Exhibits are introduced, a transcript of
the testimony is taken, and under the procedures that are set up, the
administrative procedures -- under the Administrative Procedures Act, the ALJ
makes a recommended decision.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And
that recommended decision is then presented to the Commissioners, who have,
under the rules, the authority to make a final Agency decision.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And a final Agency decision is one which
requires a recitation of the statement of facts and the conclusions of law that
lead to its final decision.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">An
Assistant Attorney General is an employee of the Department of the Attorney
General -- Mr. Schute (ph) -- particular circumstance (inaudible) represents
some 18 different administrative agencies; the Michigan Commission for the Blind
is one of the agencies that we represent and provide legal counsel
to.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So you are our lawyer and
the ALJ is someone who goes between parties to commission business.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well the ALJ is the
hearings officer assigned to the case that arises when a party makes an appeal
under --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Right.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- (inaudible).<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And I'm familiar with that part of
it.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I wanted -- I think I'm more
clear on how you're separate too now.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>So that's good.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And
hopefully that was helpful to other people too.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">Do
either of the other Commissioners have questions for Mr. Warren right
now?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I just had one.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Mr. Warren, I am assuming, but I think I
should ask; the ALJ comes under the judicial branch.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is that correct?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN: <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>No.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The ALJ is -- falls within now the
Michigan Administrative Hearing System, which is an administrative agency, which
is part of the executive branch.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And I'm -- please forgive
me.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm going to have to learn to
identify your voices.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm sorry.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>John Scott.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And on a phone call like
this, and especially with a lot of blind people too, it's not uncommon to just
say your name first.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So if you just
start talking, it's okay to say, "This is Mr. Warren again."<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That would work out real well for
everybody.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">Okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm going
to set the phone down and try to call back in.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But I think we could see if Larry has
any questions of Mr. Warren before we go into the Stelmach case, so.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Let me see.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don't have any questions
currently.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I just -- my question is
what is our options?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And to that extent, I think
it would probably be best if before we enter into a discussion of the specifics
of this case, that we enter into a discussion about the overview of the role of
the Commissioners in reviewing such cases and -- that may be helpful in
whittling out questions that we don't need to and -- to address or that --
answer and then we can get to the meat of the matter.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sounds good to me.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>John Scott speaking.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Hi.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm back in on a landline now.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Great.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That was me leaving the
call on my other phone.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">Okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And let's
see.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>John had a couple of questions
we talked about but -- okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And
I'm really ready to dig in.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm
very sorry about that everybody.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
Mr. Warren, you -- I think it was your voice that was suggesting that maybe we
should just talk about the role of Commissioners in decisions of this kind.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So if you'd like to go ahead, that would
be great.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well, I think it's
important to understand the structure that you're working in.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And the parameters and the factors that
are going to be -- going to play a role in your decision making process.
</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">As
I mentioned before, the Agency, the Commissioners, have final authority or issue
the final Agency decision.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And that
final decision, -- Agency decision, is to find in the Administrative Procedures
Act, is being made up of two parts.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>One is a list of the findings of fact and the other is the conclusions of
law.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">Now
the findings of fact are those things which are included in the administrative
record, okay?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And the Record
--</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- we get that document
that has findings of facts and his recommended --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>What you get -- what you
have received in that regard is the recommended decision of the ALJ.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But that is based upon a Record of the
proceedings that took place at the Rule 56 hearing.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That means that you should receive a
copy of the transcript of the testimony and you should receive all Exhibits that
were admitted or proffered at that hearing and reviewed by the Administrative
Law Judge.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So you're -- the first
requirement here is that you must have a complete Record of the proceedings that
occurred at that contested hearing.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Otherwise, you are not going to be in a position to know whether or not
the recommendations have any basis in fact or whether or not they're authorized
by law.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
I guess the first marker along the road here has to be, you know, that the
Commissioners receive, from staff, the complete Record.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And when you have received that, then
the rules trigger a timeline by which you must make a decision and -- with
regards to any given case.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
the first question I would have is, have you all received the full and complete
Record of this case and had an opportunity to review it?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>John Scott speaking.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We have received a transcript.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don't think we received the
Exhibits.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That's -- I agree.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This is <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lydia</st1:country-region></st1:place>.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I agree.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Under those circumstances then, you --
you know, the first prerequisite here is that you have a complete Record before
you proceed on to making a final Agency decision.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Otherwise you're going to be making this
decision on an incomplete Record.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And we should -- I know in
the Reese Patrick (ph) case, I remember there were Exhibits.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And we should assume there's Exhibits in
this one too.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I can't remember the
document as well when I read it. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yeah.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So as I say, the first step is you must
receive the complete administrative Record.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The complete Record of the hearing.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The second is, then you examine the
Record with an eye towards determining whether or not the facts as found by the
Administrative Law Judge are in fact supported by competent, material, and
substantial evidence.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That is a
constitutionally mandated standard for the review of contested cases in the
state of <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State
w:st="on">Michigan</st1:State></st1:place>.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
therefore, while you get the suggested findings of the ALJ and he or she may set
forth 15 or 20 different facts that they find, it's the Commissioner's job to
determine if those facts are in fact supported by the competent, material, and
substantial evidence in the Record that you've reviewed.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm -- this is <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">Lydia</st1:country-region></st1:place>.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I've just opened the Stelmach transcript
and it shows a list of Exhibits.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>And I don't -- there are no attachments to this I don't
believe.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sue could maybe tell me if
I'm wrong about that because I know she sent it, but.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
LUZENSKI:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>No, I -- this is Sue
speaking.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And I have the transcript
but that is all I received was the transcript.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don't have any of the Exhibits.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I get the recommendation and then, you
know, just in the last year and a half or so, we began getting a full transcript
made.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But that is all I have to
forward.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
LUZENSKI:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- need to look into
that.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It may be that you may have
to contact SOAHR to get a copy of the Exhibits and the Record.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
LUZENSKI:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Correct.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That's -- yeah, I'll look into that
because I've never received anything more than the recommendation, you know, or
the recommended decision.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And as I
said, in the last I think year and a half, we then started sending the recording
out to get a full transcript made and that is all that I've ever received.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So when you have the Record, and as I
mentioned, then the Commissioners must turn their attention to whether or not
the specific findings of fact are supported by competent, material, and
substantial evidence.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>To the extent
that you find that they are not, then you ought not be adopting them as findings
of fact.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>To the extent that they
are, then you are free to adopt them as findings of fact and you are also free
to review the Record and make additional findings of fact, so long as they're
supported by competent, material, and substantial evidence.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
if the Administrative Law Judge makes findings 1 through 15, and you see that
there are two other additional factors that are critical, then the Commission
may make additional findings of fact.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Is that clear?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yeah.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Mm-hmm.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Again, --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>And if --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Mr. Warren?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>John Scott speaking.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don't think we have time for it now
but I -- competent, material, and substantial evidence really as terms
(inaudible) significance, is that correct?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yeah.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Competent, material, and substantial
evidence means -- and let me find my definition here.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It is that evidence that a person would
reasonably rely on.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Could you say the two terms
again?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Substantial evidence and
competent --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Competent, material, and
--</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Material.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- and substantial
evidence.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Good.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm just trying to take a note
here.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And the definition is that
it is -- it establishes a fact -- it must be of such a nature that a reasonable
mind would accept it as sufficient to support the conclusion.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It is more than a mere scintilla of the
evidence but less than a preponderance of the evidence.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So it's not a particularly
high standard.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It's not like a
criminal case where it's proof beyond reasonable doubt or where, you know, you
have absolutely no question as to what the evidence shows.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It's just -- there has to be some
evidence, that is competent and material, that would tend to establish that
fact.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I didn't know --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And it doesn't exclude any
other possibility.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Somebody might
look at some evidence and see it two different ways.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That's fine.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It doesn't mean that just because one
view is adopted, that another view is not competent, material, or
substantial.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If we're in a Commission
meeting where -- well, you know, like today say, where, you know, our item is to
either affirm or reverse or modify the ALJ's recommendation and we have concerns
like that or I see something or one of our Commissioners knows the BEP program
inside and out, you know, has information that leads him to want to know more,
then we can ask some -- we can ask the person to come and give more
testimony?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Does it weigh the same
or how does that work?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And in looking at the minutes of the
meeting that -- where this case -- where a case was previously discussed, there
were some things there that I -- that I'll bring to your attention and just say
that I'm not sure these are good practices.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">The
Commission's role is to make the final Agency decision.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It is not to interject itself into the
fact-finding process, either as a witness or to become advocates for one side or
the other.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It is to weigh the
evidence and to look at it and to make a final Agency decision.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">There is nothing in the rules or the law that requires that a
party be allowed to speak at the meeting where the cases are being decided.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And in fact, there's a great danger in
inviting that because what you may get is you may get facts being offered to you
during the meetings that are inconsistent with or different or supplement things
that were contained in the Record.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">Your decision has to be based on the Record.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And you put yourself in an odd position
if you interject yourself into an extended portion of the hearing process by
renewing it in front of the Commission during a meeting such as this.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
if there are issues or questions as to whether or not facts have been
sufficiently developed, the appropriate procedure is to send it back to the
Administrative Law Judge for the taking of additional evidence on the issue that
you have.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It is not to invite
comment or input from Commissioners, who may very well find themselves in a
position of being a witness in the case if they're speaking to their own
experiences that they -- may be relevant here.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That person puts themselves in a
position where they may have to recuse themselves from the decision.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If we send it back, does --
do they -- they just hear what we send it back to have more information
about.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You're supplementing the Record.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You're not --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It doesn't redo the whole thing from
scratch.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That's good.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Go back to square one.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You simply pick up with the issue that
the Commission may want to have the ALJ flesh out, to assist it in making its
decision.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Who else sees the transcript and the
decision besides the Commissioners and of course Sue and Pat, you
know?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm not sure I understand
the question.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>My question is this; is
there any -- suppose someone in the consumer committee -- community or someone
on the elected operator committee or someone else in the BEP had a concern and
sent correspondence to the Board saying -- would they have seen any of this to
say "I have a concern about this area and I want to draw it to your attention,"
or would that not happen?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This is
my ignorance of the process.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Are we
the only people who see it, the Commissioners?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And other relevant, you know, immediate
parties like Pat and Sue?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well, to the extent that
you haven't made a decision yet, it's a document that is within the Agency's
control.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And again, inviting somebody else to
make, you know, comment is -- might be some thin ice to be out on.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I understand.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All I'm saying is would someone have
seen it and approach us?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yeah, --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But no, they shouldn't
have.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The -- if a person wishes
to get a copy of a public document, then they may, you know, acquire it under
FOIA with cost.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You know, there is
no prohibition against somebody doing it.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>There is, however, your control as to what you're going to allow by way
of the process and your review of it.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>There's no provision for, you know, in the rules, for somebody to -- for
simply individuals not associated with the hearing to come in and have their two
cents worth.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It's a matter between this
Claimant and the Commission for the Blind.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And both of whom had their chance to
come to the table with some representation and talk about it, so.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Absolutely.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That's --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Rule 56 allows a Claimant
to appear with their, you know, at the contested hearing with Counsel or with
their representative as they choose.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>And it's there that they flesh out what their claim is.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And if their claim includes points A, B,
and C, then that's all they're claiming.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>And you know, points X, Y, and Z aren't on the table.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And weren't --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- on the table.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So Larry or John or Mr.
Warren, did you want to continue talking about the process?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Or Larry or John, did you want to ask
questions?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>There's a second prong to this but I think maybe we ought to stop at the
findings of fact -- in the Record and see if there's any questions there.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
CANNON:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Tom, this is Pat Cannon
with a question.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You said only when
Commissioners have all of the materials including the ALJ recommendation, the
transcript, and any of the documents that should be part of the Record, can
Commissioners consider this.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is
that when the 60-day clock starts?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Right.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sixty-day clock on your rule, I believe,
says that you have 60 days from the receipt of the Record.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
CANNON:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And so if the Record is to
include and must include all of the Exhibits, then the 60 days doesn't start
until the Record is fully in the hands of the Commissioners.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Which this one isn't. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But can we -- if they don't have specific
questions right now, we can move on to just hearing about the whole
process.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We may not have time with
you like this again, so.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well, you've got my time if
we can make the calendar.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If we can
make the --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Right.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Let me clarify.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Your 60 days in your rule says receipt
of the proposed decision.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well you
can't review the proposed decision without the Record.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And, you know, you can ask
that it be sent forward to you.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Gentlemen, do you want to
make a motion to that effect and -- does this mean we table Stelmach for
today?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I hate to even let those
words come out of my mouth, but.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I -- well, I think we should
make the motions at the end, after we --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>How do you want to go with this?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I want to learn more about the process
because it's going to be applied again and again.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And then we had some specific questions
just about Stelmach's case -- Mrs. Stelmach's case too.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So I don't know; what do you think,
John?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I understand your
(inaudible) because we have not got the Exhibits, that -- we have an incomplete
Record and can't make a decision anyway.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>I think we just continue -- continue with the process being explained to
us.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And the questions that -- the things
that you mentioned to me in an E-mail, John, is possible things that we, you
know, could consider because I asked you what, in your lawyerly wisdom, you
think about -- there are things that are general about all cases.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Or can be about all cases.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So we can ask those as they come up too,
yes?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don't remember exactly
what I wrote last night, but.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You mentioned -- the things
you mentioned were how the promulgated rules might restrain the Board, if we
modify the ALJ's recommendation, what are the parameters, do we have the power
for the -- the specific things about the Stelmach case, about the difference in
money and equipment, and then -- and I'm not even sure how that exactly fits in
with the transcript we've gotten or if this is just something that's come
afterwards.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And then if we -- it
says here -- this was one of the general questions, which is one of the reasons
why we called in the AG I believe; was if we simply affirm the decision of the
ALJ, then what effects of arbitration are there on the process and on us as
Commissioners?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
sorry, Mr. Warren, I threw all that out on the table at once.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But those are the kind of general things
we can talk about regardless of what we do about what happens with Stelmach from
here on out.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I agree that it's probably
a good use of our time to discuss the general terms because in doing that, you
may find that the specific questions or specific discussion will be
resolved.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- (inaudible) </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- let me look at our --
let me look at our timeline real briefly.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>We have 8:50 we have scheduled for public comment.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We probably need -- stop me, Larry or
John, please, if I'm -- but I think we have five -- we can take five minutes to
make our motion about the Stelmach case and then that takes us to 8:45 and it's
almost 8:30 so we have about 15 minutes to learn more about the
process.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">Is
that good with you, Larry?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes, it is.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is that good with you,
John?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So how about, Mr. Warren, there you go,
15 minutes to teach us the most you can.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well, we've covered the concept of
having a complete Record.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We've
covered the concept of the findings of fact and that you may adopt the findings
of fact, the recommendations of the ALJ, you may reject them, but in rejecting
them, if you wish to, to amend and add additional findings of fact, you must do
that because the Agency order, the final Agency order has to include findings of
fact and conclusions of law.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">And
if the Record is not complete enough for you to have -- to believe that it's --
that any fact has been established or that you want it fleshed out more, then
you may return the matter back to the hearing stage and it's picked up and
continued at that point.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">The
third prong here, beyond Record and findings of fact, is that the decision is
the conclusion of law that must be followed.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And again, constitutionally, the
decisions of administrative agencies must follow the law and be authorized by
the law.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So in other words, an
administrative agency is not free to simply wield unlimited power and do
whatever it chooses to do with regards to any particular set of facts.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It's limited by the Constitution, it's
limited by its own statute, it may be limited by other statutes that impact upon
the process or the matter that's before it, and it may be limited by the
administrative rules that the Agency has.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
the authorized by law standard is one that does tend to limit what an Agency may
do and how it may ultimately decide a case.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And does it act like
precedent too?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Within the Agency, it
serves as a guide too to your action.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>But you -- if facts vary enough or if you decide to take a different
approach to a question, you have freedom to review that.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So the question on authorized by law
then is probably best first approached by asking the question what is it that
you want to do?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>What result do you
wish to achieve?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If you wish to
achieve a result that says the Claimant is not responsible for income tax for
the rest of her life, well, that may be a wonderful goal, but it's not
authorized under your act or your rules or -- and certainly would be in conflict
with the Internal Revenue Code.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
you must first identify what you wish to achieve.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And then you must determine do the facts
support that goal; is it supported by competent, material, and substantial
evidence, and then, is the goal that you achieve or the result you wish to bring
about in conflict with any other statutes or rules or procedures.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If it is, then you should be careful and
question whether or not in fact your decision is authorized by law and meets
that constitutional standard that we spoke about.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Does that make sense?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So it -- you know, when you get to a
case and you decide, okay, what can we do, you know, to -- let's presume that
you have a case where you find that the Commission acted inappropriately or
didn't satisfy something that it should have done.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The question is, well what can you do to
make it correct or to remedy the situation, and then test that against those
limits that are out there, not only in your statute but in your rules and then
other relevant statutes and the constitution to see if in fact what you wish to
do is what's within your power to do.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So there -- any questions
with regards to that concept, as to --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We can't --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- how then you -- what the
framework ought to be in addressing or looking at some of these, at reviews of
Administrative Law Judges or their recommended decisions?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>John Scott speaking.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>From what you are stating to me, you're
saying that it's within the discretion of the Commission to take the acts --
choose the act as -- first, competent, material, and substantial facts and
support of what was to be done.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>There's no conflict of laws -- conflict of laws, it's not against any
constitutional state statute -- constitutional state statute, or promulgated
rule, then we can act.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Because I'm
thinking that if there's not a specific -- for example, promulgated rule saying
you cannot do something, then it's within the authority of the Commission to do
what it wants to do.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well, the Commission's
rules grant the Commissioners and grant the Board the policy making authority
for the Commission with regards to the BEP program or the vending facility
program here.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So therefore, in that
context, you have the authority to set policy.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And as long as your policy
does not run up against and contrary to those statutes, rules, ordinances, you
know, constitution, then you are probably going to be free to establish the
policy in the way that you are.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">Where you will get in trouble is when it does run up against
one of those other statutory or administrative rule provisions.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And then that acts as a limit on what
you can do within the context of this program that you have policy-making
authority over.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The Commissioners
don't have policy-making authority over all aspects of the operations that are
handled by staff.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">For
example, civil service or personnel issues are staff oriented.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>They're not a matter for the Commission
to decide.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But with regards to the
vending facility program and this aspect, this is your playing field.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And is that described in
that Rule 56 too?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Which aspects we
look at this way?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>No.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The Rule 56 simply adopts the
Administrative Procedures Act --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- and the constitution
overarches all of it.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But if you're
looking for a good guide here, if you turn to the Administrative Procedures Act
and you look at Rule 306, it's MCL 24.306.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>You're going to find a list of factors that the courts would reverse an
Agency Determination or decision on.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>And it'll set forth, you know, arbitrary -- capricious, contrary to
statute or law, unconstitutional.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Basically those are good touchtones to look at and to set against your
proposed decision and say, "Well okay, am I running up against any one of these
things?" </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sue, would you be able to
find that and send that to at least the three of us?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
LUZENSKI:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sure.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And -- John Scott.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I believe you can Google that, --
Michigan Compiled Law --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- 24.306 and it should come
up.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All right.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sue, you're off the hook.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yeah.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Going back to the scope of the, you
know, Mr. Scott, the scope of your question as to what you can do, again, if a
statute lists a certain number of options, okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Uh-huh.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Then you can take those,
you know, those options.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>What you
may not do is do more than what is specifically set out in a list.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If in fact the list was intended to be
the, you know, the limitation on the authority.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Mm-hmm.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Secondly, or even beyond
that is you then have the question as to whether or not what you intend to do is
within the intent of the statute or the rule itself.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So there's two sort of checklists
there.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You have to look and see are
they setting out a list that was intended to be specific?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If so, that's what we have to follow and
we can go no further.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Or, are they
giving us a broader reach?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And if
they are, that's fine, but again, it runs up against what the scope or reach of
the statute or rule is.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So that has
to be, you know, constantly kept in mind.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Otherwise, you'll find yourself heading off and attempting to do things
that are beyond your reach.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Only to have them
overturned for some reason somewhere along the way so it makes it
counterproductive.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It does.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Better to look at it ahead
of time.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yeah.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Prudence and caution at the front end is
probably a good guide.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We have -- still about five
minutes.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We're learning at your
feet.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The, you know, this
presentation or this talking of it so far I think is, you know, should hopefully
give you a feel that when you pick up these cases and you receive the
recommendation from the Administrative Law Judge, you know, one way to address
it is you may look at it, see if in fact the Record supports the Judge's
conclusions of law --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>(Inaudible) </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- findings of fact.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>See if the Judge's conclusions of law
are not -- are authorized and not in conflict with other statutes, rules, --
then your final Agency decision can be to adopt that recommendation as written
by the ALJ.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That saves the
Commissioners and staff from having to write your own findings of fact and
conclusions of law.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">If,
on the other hand, you disagree and you wish to modify those, then there must be
some writing to create those findings of fact and conclusions of law that will
form the basis for your decision.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>You know, based on the Record that you've got.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>What you can't do is simply say, "Well
we disagree with the ALJ, --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Mm-hmm.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- and we're going to rule
this way."<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Right.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Without having established
what facts it is or that there are that you find support your
conclusion.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And if it's not there and
we want more information, we just send it back rather than deciding.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yeah.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yeah.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Don't attempt to supplement the Record
at your hearing -- or at your meeting.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>That's not the forum for it.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Mr. Warren, we're all happy
to serve on the Board but we all, you know, I think have -- at least I do have
this little inkling of concern of how -- can it come back to me personally?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Be sued or something?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If -- John probably has no questions
about this because he's a lawyer and understands.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But, you know, I'm not a
lawyer.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You are a State -- you're
an individual operating or in the capacity of a State Agency.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You have immunity.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So in --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Not an excuse for bad
behavior, but --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You know, don't go out and
do a willful act or an intentional -- go out intentionally setting about to harm
somebody.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But to the extent that
you or staff are engaged in discretionary functions and you make decisions in
certain ways, you know, there's -- you're immune from a lawsuit claiming damages
from you for that wrong.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>One more point I want to
make with regards to your final Agency decision; let's say that you -- that a
matter comes up and there is a disagreement between Commission staff and the
Claimant as to what occurred and what ought to be the remedy.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And let's say that at the time when the
Commissioners address --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Can I just ask who is
speaking real briefly?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Who is
speaking?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Still Mr.
Warren.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Still Mr. Warren.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm sorry. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That suppose that the
Commissioners -- that staff's interpretation is incorrect and that the findings
of fact and conclusions of law ought to favor the Claimant.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Then the Commissioners can task staff to
draft or assist in drafting that final Agency decision.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">Now
I can imagine that staff might be in a position of thinking, you know, we
thought we were right, but you folks as the Commissioners, you're the ones who
dictate what the final Agency decision will look like.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It has to be, again, following the
Record, supported by competent, material, and substantial evidence, authorized
by law.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But the final Agency
decision is yours as to the BEP decisions.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Mr. Warren, John Scott.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Suppose the Commissioners find --
believe the findings of facts and conclusion of law of the ALJ are correct but
don't agree with the remedy.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Can
there be an alteration?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You may issue your final
Agency order and issue the remedy that is authorized by law.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But under the circumstances, it's one of
those where you might want to take a second -- a real hard look at what the ALJ
is recommending and why.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Because
the ALJ has had the facts presented to her or him and, you know, more often than
not may have seen a case -- some cases like this and knows sort of what the
parameters are as to what may be an authorized decision. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">The
danger of the Commission wanting to choose a different remedy is that you may be
interjecting an issue into the decision that wasn't there before the ALJ.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">For
example, supposed that, you know, your Claimant wants tax amnesty for the rest
of his life.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well, if they never
raised that before the ALJ, the ALJ's decision isn't going to include that.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You may not then interject that as a
remedy without making findings of fact and you're not going to be able to find
those facts because they're not in the Record.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
your review in that regard is, you know, is limited to what's in the Record and
what the facts will support.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If
they support an alternative conclusion or an alternative remedy that was raised,
then you may be okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But there's
great danger to go the other way.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Can we ask the Administrative Law Judge
for example on -- say we have another possible -- we want to consider to ask the
ALJ to give -- I guess the discussion or, you know, state his or her position on
that particular remedy, saying why it is or is not possible?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well, I guess my initial
reaction is why would you want to interject an issue into the proceedings that
the parties didn't?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Now you sound
like or it might be viewed that you've chosen a -- you've chosen sides
here.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And that again is not your
role.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Your role is to determine
what the facts and conclusions of law -- what are the proper findings of fact
and conclusions of law based upon the Record.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And if the Record is silent on a
particular issue, then it's silent on that issue and you make your decision
based upon the facts and the recommendations and the conclusions of law that
were made by the ALJ.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm going to interrupt
because my clock is saying 8:47 and I want to make sure that public comment
happens at the time we said.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In
case people are coming in for it.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>So I think we're going to have to -- we may have to get more information
about some of these things later.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">Mr.
Warren, I probably interrupted you.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>So maybe you can finish, you know, your thought and then one of the two
Commissioners, can we get a motion on the floor regarding the Stelmach
case?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Right.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So Mr. Warren, it's to you
again right now.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The last comment I would make is, is
always keep in mind that the ALJ's remedy may not be authorized by law as
well.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So again, you know, the
document that comes forward to you and those findings of fact and conclusions of
law are for you to review and determine if they're in fact correct.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And where they're not correct, then, you
know, then you have certain means by which you can affect some correction.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And if there's something we don't like
about the remedy, we can ask for a certain part to be fleshed out further in the
ALJ process.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If -- you may.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I would suggest that if it's within the
realm or the subject matter that was raised by the parties.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Right.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We can't just bring in something that we
thought of.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The problem with bringing
in --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- something that you think
of is that it begins to look like the proceedings are taking a bias toward one
side or the other. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Right.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I see your point.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And you can't do that.
</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Mr. Warren, I'm going to thank you now
in case I forget to.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you for
coming in and I don't remember your boss' name exactly but I'm glad that --
thank you for -- thank him too for being there and the other people
too.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">Let
me hear from my fellow Commissioners now about a motion.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>John Scott.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In light of the fact that we had not
gotten -- received the full Record, that being the Exhibits, I move at this time
that we table decision on the Stelmach case until we get the Exhibits.
</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I second it.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Motion is on the floor and
seconded.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is there any further --
is there any discussion?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I would think that the only
question I have and I don't know where I got this from, is it's not clear in the
decision of the Administrative Law Judge from my point of view the time factors
of when the location was bidded out and was awarded to the other operator to
make a decision if there was something else happening, clearly in the decision
when they made the decision and moved the vendor.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don't see that as clear.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Maybe I'm -- making it clear.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But I see a problem of fact where I
didn't understand where the time factors were clear enough.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Do we want to -- I mean
we're going to be asking for the Exhibits.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>We have the rest of the Record.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Do we want to ask now to have a timeline fleshed out better or do we want
to wait until we have the Exhibits?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>What's your thought, guys?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>(Inaudible) </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I understand where
Commissioner Posont is coming from.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>The thing that's going through my mind is my -- I didn't have (inaudible)
timelines in -- Exhibits are probably, I would think are all dated.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I think we need to review the Record as
received and then make a determination whether or not we need more fleshing
out.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And we definitely -- I mean
we know from other things we've heard that sometimes a temporary situation
should have -- should be set up while things get worked out and that didn't
happen here and that's something to consider, you know, separate from this
case.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Because that's not -- wasn't
necessarily the policy to always do it that way.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That is something we want to set out to
talk about in the future.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">But
John, I think I'm with you that we should just get those Exhibits and if we can
identify anything specific we want fleshed out, then we need to bring it to the
table in September?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is that where
we want to leave this or do you want to try to meet in two weeks so that we --
if -- or should we let each other know if we should talk to Director Cannon, one
or all of us, if we want to meet again to talk about this so that we can move to
have something else fleshed out before our September meeting?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don't want to wait, you know, over a
month again just to say, "We need to have this part heard again."<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>If we get the Exhibits and give us time to work on those Exhibits and
then we would have the evidence or what we believe -- to make a
decision.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
CANNON:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Lydia</st1:country-region></st1:place>,
this is Pat with just --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes, sir. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
CANNON:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- comment.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>One, doing the calculation in my head, I
think if all of the Exhibits in theory were received by Commissioners today and
the 60 day clock would start today, that takes us to September 18th.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So I think we have time for
Commissioners to be thorough in their review, what takes place next. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">And
my other suggestion is because the word "table" has specific connotations under
Robert's Rules of Order, --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
CANNON:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- I would suggest rather
that we use the word "defer action" rather than "table." </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So I guess then, you know, as soon as
possible, we want the Exhibits.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The
60-day clock starts then.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And if
we're -- so we're moving to defer action on -- I'll state it, gentlemen, you can
correct me, okay?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And we're moving
to defer action on the Stelmach case until 60 days after -- within -- we're
going to act within 60 days after receiving the items that need to be attached,
the Exhibits.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And in that 60 days, we could -- well,
we can come together at the September meeting and say that we need a certain
part fleshed out again if we see that in there.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Or we can do that ahead of time if we
want to call a special meeting just to do that.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Correct.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is that --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>-- question.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sue, how did you write that
down?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
LUZENSKI:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>What I've just put was
"Scott moved to defer action on the decision on the Stelmach case within 60 days
of all Exhibits being received.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Posont seconded."<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Does that -- is that
acceptable to you gentlemen?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
LUZENSKI:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Is that clear?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes, that's fine.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
LUZENSKI:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That's okay.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Larry?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All right.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So I'm going to call for the vote.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All in favor?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Aye.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Aye.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Aye.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Did you hear all of us, Sue?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
LUZENSKI:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yep.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I got it.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And now -- gentlemen, if it's all right
with you, we will open it for public comment.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Okay.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Let me un-mute
everybody.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And then please state your name and make
your comment.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>My clock says
8:54.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I have permission to be a
little late to class.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don't know
if John has permission to be late to Court, so --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well, it's not (inaudible)
be picked up between 9:00 and 9:20.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I was trying to make you
sound really important, like they're holding a case for you.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Anyway.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay, so --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Everybody is un-muted.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WURTZEL:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Fred Wurtzel, Madam
Chair.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Go ahead, Fred.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WURTZEL:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm sorry -- my coughing
is using up my three minutes.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>I restarted you, Fred.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WURTZEL:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-- I want to commend Mr.
Warren.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I came on a little late so
I didn't really hear the beginning.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>However, I am so pleased with this presentation this morning, having been
the administrator of the Business Enterprise Program for many years.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>What was presented this morning sits
perfectly with my understanding of the process and the procedure.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">I've also had some classes in administrative law and if those
things are followed, it will make your job so much easier to do.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And it will also prevent some of the
extraneous noise that's happened around Commission meetings with regard to these
cases.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Because I just -- I think
that the whole process has become a little bit unwieldy, unruly, and I think
that this is going to make your life so much simpler and it gives you quite a
bit of latitude, but yet it gives you necessary limits which will be very
helpful to you.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And it also makes
things easier for staff when presenting material because it sets up who is in
charge of what.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
I'm very happy that this presentation has happened this morning.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I hope that you get a good recording of
this and listen to it three or four times before each -- time you have to make
these decisions, because you'll find it very useful.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
thank you for your presentation, Mr. Warren.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That was great and I'm really glad that
you as -- gotten some competent advice on this -- on these matters. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you, Fred.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
WARREN:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you for your kind
words, sir.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Who is next?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HARCZ:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Joe Harcz.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Go ahead, Joe.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
HARCZ:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I want to echo what Fred said.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I also would like to comment on the
elephant that's been in the room.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>For as long as I've been in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:State
w:st="on">Michigan</st1:State></st1:place>, much of this goes to both
Commissioners, people within the entire process getting information in a timely
and accessible manner.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And I would
like to add to what the Attorney General said.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>What we're dealing with in this
circumstance are federal civil rights laws, the Americans with Disabilities Act,
which is going to have it's 21st birthday coming up in about ten days, and
Section 504.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And they do
override.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>They are at play
throughout the entire process.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>We're dealing with blind people here.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>They need to have their information to
get due process of law within these administrative law proceedings.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We have blind Commissioners who are
asked -- for ten years to make determinations without the full
package.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">And
so that's a real problem and it's riddled throughout.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It's riddled not -- not only within the
Michigan Commission for the Blind, which should be the leader on this standard,
but also throughout every state agency, in part because the Michigan Commission
for the Blind hasn't been proactive in those regards. </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">So
I'd like to echo what Fred said -- or what Fred said and I would also like us to
keep our eyes on the prize.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Because
you people can't make good decisions, the clients within the process cannot make
good, informed decisions, and we've already seen where many don't even get their
IPE.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Nobody can make appropriate
decisions without the information in a format that they can use
(inaudible).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I thank
you.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you, Joe.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Anyone else?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
KEATHLEY:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Madam Chair, Greg
Keathley.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Go ahead, Greg.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
KEATHLEY:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sorry I wasn't on here
earlier.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I didn't think it started
'til 8:45 and I was on mute when I did come on.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">Anyway, I just wanted to disagree with Fred and Joe a little
bit.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I think some of what Mr.
Warren said was totally off base, and I think the Board obviously agreed by
wanting to review these Exhibits.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">I
don't think you guys are a judicial board and everything is not about law.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>What you guys are doing is about what's
right.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And who was fixing what was
wrong.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Everybody's always saying,
"Well you gotta go by what the ALJ says" and this and that.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That's not true at all.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In my opinion.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And I think that this Board obviously
sees that by the fact that they want to review these Exhibits.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>And I think once they do, they'll see
this case and understand it and see that Sheila was wronged and she's just
asking for a suitable remedy for what she suffered during when she was
wronged.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That's my comment.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you all very much.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you, Greg.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Anyone else?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If there's no more further comment, I --
are there any concerns from the Commissioners or shall we adjourn?<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I guess I need a motion to adjourn if
you would like to.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I make a motion that we
adjourn.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I think I need you to
second, John.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I second it.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The motion is on the floor.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I'm going to assume there's no
discussion.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>So I call for the
vote.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>All in favor of
adjourning?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
POSONT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Aye.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Aye.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay, --</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Are you saying "Yes,"
John?</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Yes.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>You're willing to
adjourn?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you everybody.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>We'll look forward to those -- getting
those Exhibits and move on from there.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>(Inaudible) </FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MS.
SCHUCK:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thanks everybody.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thanks.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Bye-bye.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>All right.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Thank you.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT face="Courier New">MR.
SCOTT:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Okay.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Bye-bye.</FONT></P>
<P class=Colloquy style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.6in"><FONT
face="Courier New">(WHEREUPON, the hearing was adjourned at 9:01
a.m.)</FONT></P>
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