[blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Mon Dec 8 00:56:46 UTC 2008

Dear Colleen,
I am glad for the clarification. At first it really sounded like you felt
the concepts of being in line beyond the following the line; knowing some
idea how much line was ahead or behind, and how near one was to checking out
or if in the correct line was somehow practically beyond a blind child's
ability to conceive or learn...

Low expectations abound, in parents and teachers. In parents and teachers
both I find it is often due largely to not knowing any blind adults (or if
they do...it is ONE blind adult that they are perhaps acquainted only with),
or how they live independently. They are full of the fears and
misconceptions about blindness. Just like better (or accurately) informed
parents are more likely to be on this list, so are better (or accurately)
informed teachers.

I too find more parents who do not know Braille than who do. I have seen in
blind people-adults and children, the result is a hurting and a feeling of
lack of validation more than anything else...that should be reason enough to
learn it. We have not made it easy enough for parents to learn it though
too. I know some Teachers of Blind Students who have short courses for the
parents of their Braille readers and it has been very successful for the
parent to get engaged to do it and also go on and learn more on their own. 

In my case I am ashamed to say in the beginning I did not understand my son
would be a primary Braille reader, I had absolutely no encouragement or
knowledge from the school or connection to other parents...I only learned
the alphabet on my own. Since I did not use it much I began to lose it. Then
I started writing small notes and working at a place where I had occasion to
write short things in Braille and it began to "stick". By then my son was
way ahead of me in the contractions and I seemed to have no time...then I
realized my failure and have been learning grade II and trying to get
fluent. It is harder than sign language in that if you speak to your child
with sign language every day it is easy to gain and remain fluent, and to
understand the need...we have to better help parents understand why they
should know Braille. I know not all parents of deaf children even know sign
language but it is a bad thing...It is one of the things I would like to
change, making it easy and understandable to parents--so they as a matter of
course become fluent in Braille. I have been happy to see many take the
certification transcriber's course and many also to take the Hadley course
in the last year. Many more parents are finding out how they can learn
Braille along with their child...or even ahead if they have a newborn but we
still have a ways to go.

Of course parents reflect the full cross section of society, and I have
found those who truly think they can not teach their child, they can not
think of "how" or "what" to do non-visually...they have like a mental block
and really think professionalism is necessary for the daily living and
travel, and even reading. In some cases the professionals themselves plant
these seeds and make it that way and even show "territorialism" here too. In
some other cases I have truly seen the parent not understand the true normal
capabilities of blind people and wanted the professionals to "fix" their
child...or some with low vision children can not admit to their child "being
blind", just like some teachers don't want low vision children "looking
blind". And a few parents are just lazy or take the "easy way out" and do it
for their child now--not looking ahead to the future. And I have met a very
few who appeared embarrassed and apologetic. I can think of one now--he can
not view his son as a MAN, he has not treated his son the same as if he were
a sighted son with the same expectations--and that is all the more reason to
try and get that father to meet some REAL blind MEN. I also know the teacher
of this boy and she has neither done anything to raise expectations or make
it seem like anyone without a degree in blindness or O and M can do anything
to teach him.

I would like to see how we can help your "lack of parent involvement". Do
every one of them know about this list and receive Future Reflections? Do
they know about the Texas POBC? Have you volunteered to take them to a NFB
chapter meeting or a state NFB Convention? Have you volunteered to have a
workshop with the TX-POBC and NFB coming in? Have you gone to their homes
and shown them how easy it is to do daily living things? Do you invite them
to come to the O and M and community lessons? Have you sent them any of our
videos? Do you send home "homework" with "how to's"? Don't give up on
them!!!

 How do you think we can help you? I recall you had a newsletter--that is
good! None of my son's teacher ever had such a thing.

One final thing, it seemed you said you had 23 students and only 2 were
Braille readers. Why? Are the others reading print competitively?...At
"sighted" reading speeds without fatigue and do they have mobility in
reading capability--meaning you can not take a CCTV into a car...

And have you asked the other 18 families WHY they do not take an active
role, each one likely has a bit different reason, I bet some of them just
plain feel they don't know how or what to expect...

Please let us know how you think we can help, 

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc
-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Colleen Davis
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 3:32 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

One of the things that make teaching these concepts hard is the finite
amount of time that we have for a community visit. The bus is waiting and we
have x amount of time until we have to be back. also, teaching "waiting" is
not taught in isolation, but as part of an outing in which many other things
are covered. Planning the things that I want to cover and trying to think
out the tasks' steps ahead of time take time and thought. There are always
unplanned things that throw a wrench in the works. That mess-up turns into a
lesson on the fly. 

Unfortunately, many of my kids' parents do not teach them these skills. To
their credit, they are tired, rushed, and the waiting in line experience is
usually not pleasant. They sometimes view it as easier to park the child on
a bench and  just do it themselves than to take the time to think it through
and teach it. It's not right, but that's how it is. Lots of parents don't
even truly believe that their child will ever need to wait in a line, pay
for groceries, or order food at a fast food counter.

Waiting at school is different because the environment is familiar and so
are the people. Kids know where things are, the voices of their teachers and
classmates. The cafeteria workers know that the student needs to be told
what the choices are. I guess I should have specified teaching in the
community. Maybe it is just hard for me.

You guys are a unique group. The fact that this list is here and that you
are on it, that all of the support and advocacy groups are here is because
you are active in making your self or your child as independent as possible.
At our regional TVI meetings, lack of parental involvement is a frequently
discussed topic. Just as in regular education, lots of parents think that
teaching is the school's job, not theirs. Of my 23 students, I would guess
that only 5 parents take an active role in teaching daily living skills.
Neither one of my Braille students' parents know Braille and you can bet
your bottom dollar that those kids work that for all it is worth when they
want to!   

On the subject of O&M, my O&M wants to be involved in lots of the community
travel. We collaborate on lessons so that I can get her O&M ideas and she
can get mine from the VI teaching standpoint. We have worked together for a
long time and are friends outside of school, so it is not a problem for us,
but some specialists are "territorial". I don't want someone coming in and
giving my student new Braille instruction at school. That is my
responsibility and I have my own methods. An O&M might not agree with the
way I teach a orientation skill or a mobility routine. It is just a thing
that we work. Maybe that is unusual, but I haven't found it to be.

This is just my experience.
Colleen

________________________________
From: Carrie Gilmer <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 7, 2008 1:42:34 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Dear Colleen,
I too found your statement "one of the hardest things to teach kids" pretty
surprising and curious. Obviously you have your real experiences. But
still... 

What I guess is a bit disappointing, is that for the students you have had
anyway, they have not been doing this regularly in life at home.
Your description didn't sound so hard really, and the things to notice to
tell how long a line was, or if you are in the right line at all (cash only,
10 items or less...)I don't understand what is so hard about teaching that.
I do know from my Saturday School experience though that this is an easy one
to miss at home for some. This shouldn't need to be even an O and M lesson
In my opinion, or so hard that you have to have O and M certification to
teach it...I mean any parent can do this with their child and indeed should
be. I don't find the kids have such trouble grasping it when they have
opportunities to use and practice the "skill".

That is much of the problem. Children are not taken to the store because in
our busy lives it is easier to run in when the kids are not with us, or we
are in a hurry, or the kids are busy begging us for stuff in line and we
don't think about it as a teaching moment.

But this rush to make things easier for us--often makes things harder for
our kids in the long run and is what I mean when I say we have to make a
commitment to making sure our kids know how to do what sighted kids of the
same age know how to do. For a sighted child the parent did not have to
think or make opportunities other than really teaching that you have to wait
your turn, you can't just butt into the middle or front. Blind children need
the very things you spoke of pointed out, and they need chances for all the
varieties of practice. This is what I mean when I say we have to make it a
conscious effort and make it a lifestyle--not mere lessons now and then.

I am glad for what you wrote Colleen. Real glad. And your "how-to". This is
a perfect time of year to find great lines! Take the kids shopping! In the
long run it will save you to put effort into this now.

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Freeman
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:15 AM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Colleen:

You've piqued my curiosity. Why, do you think, is learning to wait in 
line such a tough concept for your visually impaired students to grasp? 
I'm not trying to salve my ego but it seemed like a no-brainer to me; it 
was no different than waiting my turn at nursery school or kindergarten 
when one was using a scarce resource such as a swing or teeter-totter. 
(Ah, mischief)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Colleen Davis" <bldhnds52 at yahoo.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Our O&M Specialist and I usually take our kids on several community 
trips to grocery stores, fast food places, and a discount department 
store beginning in early in elementary.

Just the concept of waiting in line is one of the hardest things to 
teach to kids who have visual impairments! They are often just told, "We 
have to wait in line." They move up and ask again, and on, (at this time 
of year) and on, and on!

We begin by finding a line with a few people and briefly explain to them 
that we are doing a lesson on waiting in line. People are usually 
enthusiastic about helping. Some even like to get involved. One time, a 
lady suggested that they "count off" and each one counted themselves 
aloud. It was so cool! My student was able to not only know how many 
people were there, but who they were. Most of the time, we give our 
spiel to the customers, and then have the student count the carts either 
with his/her hand or the cane. Then we get in line and wait, counting 
down as we move up. We cue the students to the things around them that 
will let them know that they are getting close: magazine racks, the 
dreaded candy and "impulse purchase" items, the sound of the scanner, 
the conveyor belt, the voice of the checker, and the phrases that are 
used (greetings, "Thank you", "Can I help you?", etc.).

As the child approaches an age where they would be finding a line on 
their own, we teach them to listen for the sounds of carts and 
conversations, along with their canes to find a line. We teach them to 
ask if they are in the correct line to ___ and where the end of the line 
is. Sometimes someone will say, "Back here", but sometimes it is, "Back 
there" (thanks, buddy!). If they get a response that helps them, it is 
usually not a problem for them to use the cane or their hand touching 
the front of the cart (not the person) until they arrive at the end.

We have had people say that they can go to the front of the line, but I 
thank them, but try to explain that we are working on a lesson on 
waiting in line and thank them again, with my student thanking them, 
too.  I prefer for my students to learn to wait in line just like 
everyone else.

It is an interesting exercise and I find that most people are very 
accommodating. We did have one person point out that we were in the 
express line and we had more than 10 items! That is when we added the 
"Am I in the correct line to ___?" piece! We learn along with the 
students every day.

As I said at the beginning, this is a hard concept and it takes a long 
time to teach. It helps to share the methods with parents so that they 
can use it, too.  It needs to be refined as the student grows. At the 
beginning, the child would not be shopping/ordering independently, so 
the rationale is the social skills involved in waiting and to assist in 
maintaining the sanity of the people around the child. :-) As they 
mature, their role is expanded with the goal that they will be able to 
complete these tasks independently as teens and adults.

This may be more information that everyone needed, but I hope it helps. 
If anyone else has suggestions, I am always looking for new ideas.

Colleen

________________________________
From: Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 11:55:13 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Carrie:

Seems to me what the below posts truly show is the all-too-prevalent
tendency on NABS-L to make mountains out of molehills.

Seems to me it's simple: you ask where the end of the line is and stay
close enough to the person in front to know when s/he moves. If you
don't, the people behind you will certainly tell you when the line
moves. But students seem preoccupied with "looking good", not sticking
out from the crowd and doing everything the "right way" -- whatever that
might be.

To me, lining up was nothing compared to working in a foreign language
imersion environment and trying to figure out what was on a cafeteria
line when one didn't know what things were called in said foreign
language! (grin)

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carrie Gilmer" <carrie.gilmer at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:40 AM
Subject: [blindkid] FW: [nabs-l] Line Ups

I find it often interesting that things that come up for us often come
up
simultaneously on the student list--that is they bring it up and discuss
amongst themselves...here is a new example: Recall Stephanie had posted
about Kendra being shown a method that Stephanie questioned for lining
up...
I had thought but never added...
I think there is room in first grade for a bit of line swaying, that is
I
wouldn't expect her to be perfect like a line at a military academy or
boot
camp. I have spent many hours at elementary schools in the last twenty
years... and observed many a line. The sighted kids do not line up
perfectly...

I would also ask you to observe the subtle things in the discussion
below
and the differences between what they were taught and where they were
taught
it....

Carrie Gilmer, President
National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
A Division of the National Federation of the Blind
NFB National Center: 410-659-9314
Home Phone: 763-784-8590
carrie.gilmer at gmail.com
www.nfb.org/nopbc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:42 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups

Hi all,

when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back,
we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in
front of us.  However when the person is moving around or hovering on
the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the
best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the
end of the line, as the person when you can ove up.  or rather, if
they could tell you when it's time to move up.

I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but
college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what
you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting
in line.

On 12/4/08, hannah <sparklylicious at suddenlink.net> wrote:
> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel
> of the person in front of you.
> Best,
> Hannah
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Serena" <serenacucco at verizon.net
>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>With respect, I disagree.  I think putting your hand on a sighted
> person's
>>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger.  Also,
> some
>>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and
> grab your
>>arm without worning you!
>
>>Serena
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>
>>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places
> that had a
>>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in
> front of
>>> me.
>>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency
> so if I
>>> put
>>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and
> are
>>> perfectly
>>> fine with it.
>>> Mind you, those are the blind people.
>>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to
> move up.
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Sarah Jevnikar
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups
>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect
> we hadn't
>>> yet discussed.  How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know
> if it's
>>> your
>>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines
> that
>>> converge
>>> so things can get confusing.  I know the obvious thing would be
> to ask the
>>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm
> in
>>> unfamiliar
>>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well.  Any
> other thoughts?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Sarah
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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