[blindkid] Math technology

Albert J Rizzi albert at myblindspot.org
Mon Apr 12 12:28:55 UTC 2010


I would have to agree with heather here. Are you a teacher? I know you are
blind from the other threads I have seen you on. but what are your
qualifications here Mr. freeman?

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


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-----Original Message-----
From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 9:16 PM
To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Math technology

This Gal, who donates tons of her time and energy to helping "The other 
half" really resents your pretentious tone.  I was expressing empathy and 
worry for those blind students whose districts are unwilling or unable or 
both, to provide them with the most appropriate technologies for the study 
of advanced math concepts.  You'll have to forgive this one, because I don't

know you personally, or by word of mouth and for all I know you could be a 
TVI or an educator of some other sort, but with the knowledge that I 
currently have of the situation, I am more inclined to have this accademic 
debate with the other Heather as I believe she is a TVI, no?  And while we 
both may still not ever come to complete agreement, at least she and I are 
both educators and I would really advise that you read my posts more 
carefully before pointing fingers.  I realize that situationally speaking, 
that some blind kids have more advantages than others, and that is one of 
the reasons that I said that I sometimes seriously consider becoming a TVI. 
The issue that Mrs Fields brought up is one I would like to discuss with her

further as Gardiner's Multiple intelligences are not the same thing as 
Emotional Intelligence or the concept of EQ, and I have some questions and 
friendly debate for her, because I am always looking to expand, refine, 
challenge and revise my current ideas and knowledge base.  You emply that I 
am rich and have the best situation in the world and I can't possibly 
imagine how "The other half" of blind kids live.  For your information we 
are pretty darn close to the broke end of the spectrum and not through any 
lack of motivation, intelligence or work ethic.  Some things that I had as 
accomidations were pure luck that I wound up in the school district I did, 
and some were a result of my mom's hard work and advocacy and later when I 
had more of a hand in my own schooling, my hard work and advocacy.  Some 
battles I won, some I lost, and I may have had some things easier but I can 
assure you that a lot of things came harder for me than for these kids. 
Everyone's life circomstances are complex and different from one individual 
to the next.  I wasn't bragging about my school district getting me all of 
these things.  I was expressing frustration at the fundage and resources 
that they wasted that could have benifited other kids, and I was expressing 
dismay at the disparity between different school districts.  I have written 
a different response to Mrs Fields regarding the learning style/multiple 
intelligences/EQ debate, but I just wasn't going to sit by and let someone 
who doesn't even know me emply that I am stuck up or out of touch with 
reality.  I walk through the inner city every week day taking the city bus, 
not para-transit, which I do have for extenuating circomstances, to school 
every day, and I pass the homeless guys and I chat with hard-working people 
who live in some of the worse neighborhoods.  I never give money to homeless

people, because they could buy drugs or booz, but I started giving out 
apples when I was at the Eastman School of music, because one particular 
homeless man asked me one day for food and I had one with me, because my 
voice teacher at the time instructed us to eat one apple per day no matter 
what.  He came up to me the next day and asked if I had an apple, and we 
started up with me bringing two apples every day and at the end of each week

I would take him to the cafe and buy him a proper meal.  I am a red cross 
blood doaner and have been donating since I was old enough to be ellagable 
and am in a gallons rase with my dad who has given over 25 gallons, but I 
might katch up, because he has built up so much scar tissue on the draw 
sites that he can only give every three or four times he comes to donate.  I

volinteer with pregnant teen agers to help them learn how to breastfeed and 
baby wear to help maxamize their time and bond with their infants and to 
help them balance their lives and not give up their chances for a meaningful

relationship with their child or for an education.  Have I volinteered with 
blind kids who don't have enough technology?  No, because it is, as someone 
else said a low-incidence disability and in our area there are very few 
blind children or teens and the districts locally provide for the most part,

but just because I spend my time and energy helping other populations in 
need does not mean that I don't know what it is like for people who are at a

disadvantage.  My father and I ate meals from creative uses of dollar store 
food and sometimes even food pantry food, and my clothes come from a 
combination of thrift stores and walmart, so, please don't judge me.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)" 
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Math technology


Thanks, Heather.

It's ogvious that this gal doesn't know how the other half lives, nor does
she understand how much Big Ed bamboozles both themselves and the public
sometimes.

Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "H. Field" <missheather at comcast.net>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] Math technology


> Hi Heather,
> As I said, the learning styles issue is a big one and people love to
> believe in it. However, there doesn't appear to be an aptitude
> treatment interaction. So, in real educational terms, learning styles
> is not a factor in educational outcomes. Read, write say is successful
> because it gives a student proper practise, decoding, encoding and
> speaking. This is about memory training, it isn't successful because
> it addresses different learning styles. I personally don't employ
> read, write and say when I teach children to read because most of my
> students are under five and don't have the motor control to write.
> But, I get them to find and arrange letters on a magnetic board as a
> separate activity. Reading is a complex set of tasks and I have found
> use of designed context presentation, and mneumonic pairing, along
> with early use of a controlled vocabulary and lots of actual reading,
> guarantees the most rapid acquisition of independent reading. I've
> been teaching long enough to see fads come and go, but as long as
> children have certain basic things in place, they learn to read on
> whatever method is used, in about the same amount of time. The reasons
> for the wide variation in public schools is the lack of some of the
> basic requirements for reading to be acquired, and is a symptom of the
> public school teaching situation.
>
> Emotional intelligences is different from learning styles and is more
> about one's overall life interaction and personal preferences and is
> most useful in assisting educators with managing student behaviour and
> student motivation.
>
> Regards,
>
> Heather Field
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 8:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Math technology
>
>
> That is the most depressing thing that I have ever read.  Every time I
> see
> something like this I feel more and more compelled to become a TVI and
> not
> simply an early childhood or elementary teacher with special education
> cirtification.  I just can't fathem it.  I never had graphing
> software, but
> I never pushed for it, because I was more of a music, art, theatre,
> English
> and psychology minded student.  I had a scientific calculator, a lap
> top, a
> braille blazer embosser, a printer, JFW, Duxbery, a plethera of raised
> line
> graph paper, wicky sticks, cork board and tracing wheels, a cane and
> time
> each week in elementary school and upon request in high school with an
> adaptive tech instructor, an O and M instructor and a TVI who were
> sometimes
> one individual qualified for all three and sometimes three different
> people.
> This is really frightening.  I am not just jumping on a band wagon
> here.
> This honestly scares me.  What drives me crazy is that the blind
> people
> around here are very old people who used to be active in NFB or ACB,
> or
> both, and now just sit around and talk about the good old days and
> drink
> coffee, the younger ones are too busy workking their tails off to
> start a
> chapter of either organization from scratch and restructure it to be
> useful,
> our only local chapter is ACB with the afore mentioned old people more
> interested in talking than acting.  I am thanking the powers that be
> one
> more time right now for giving me a kick ass totally blind mom who
> fought
> for me every step of the way so that I can do that for my son.  This
> is
> really upsetting, because our district would buy me things I didn't
> need
> then just toss them in storage, such as accidentally buying me braille
> books
> I had already gotten on tape and read, low vision adaptive tech that I
> couldn't see and the wrong calculator or the large print text book
> instead
> of the electronic or braille one, because of an error by the company
> that
> made the product, that were never returned and exchanged or sold or
> donated
> to other districts.  I knew not every state had a comission, but I
> didn't
> realize that that meant that other states might not have a similar
> organization that was just called something else.  I thank you for
> some
> pperspective.
>
> The only thing that I wanted to take slight issue with is the
> assertion that
> different learning styles don't exist or are not influential.  If they
> were
> not, then practices such as see it, say it, write it, would not be so
> effective.  Also, multiple intelligences and their different
> combinations
> are what cause the different learning styles to exist, so saying that
> Gardiner's multiple intelligences are real but different learning
> styles are
> not is sort of contradictory.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "H. Field" <missheather at comcast.net>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 7:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Math technology
>
>
>> Hello everyone,
>> It is a tragic truth that people who have the requisite knowledge
>> and
>> training to produce braille of any kind, let alone graphics using a
>> Tiger embosser, are incredibly rare in most parts of this country.
>> If
>> we place this debate in the context of the acute shortage of trained
>> teachers of the blind, and school districts floundering beneath the
>> weight of budgeting problems, then it is not difficult to understand
>> why there is a lack of qualified paraprofessionals/transcribers and
>> expensive, adaptive equipment.
>>
>> People who have grown up in large cities with big school districts
>> which serve a number of blind children may not have experienced this
>> shortage reality. and, the magic words, Commission for the blind,
>> roll
>> easily off the tongue of those who live in states that have them.
>> However, the harsh reality is that many states do not have a
>> commission for the blind and the section of the human services
>> department that oversees blind services in these states has little
>> or
>> no involvement in providing early intervention or student services.
>> So, no money, equipment or people to set it up or run it will come
>> to
>> school districts from blind services in many states.
>>
>> Furthermore, blindness is a low incidence disability and in many
>> parts
>> of the United States, there may only be one or two blind children
>> receiving services in any given county. With the neighbourhood
>> school
>> policy these students Often attend schools at the opposite ends of
>> the
>> county. Many of these students don't have a teacher of the blind
>> because the schools can't find one to hire. They also usually don't
>> have a braille transcriptionist. These students are usually served
>> through the resource centres at their state school for the blind.
>> The
>> general special education teacher at the school orders books,
>> braille
>> writers and other such equipment, using Quota funds, and the
>> resource
>> centers send the school the materials and equipment.  The idea of a
>> school district buying an embosser that produces graphs and then
>> finding someone willing and able to run it is simply a pipe dream
>> for
>> most blind students right now. This lack of qualified teachers and
>> the
>> high cost of adaptive equipment for blind children is a large factor
>> in the tragic trend to "unblind", many children. Much easier to call
>> them "low vision" get them a cctv and a parttime aide and call it
>> service than to try to solve such a complex and difficult problem.
>>
>> The question then, becomes one of practicality. What will work to
>> get
>> the mathematical concepts across and the lessons learned for blind
>> children. Low tech, inexpensive solutions like the Sewell Raised
>> Line
>> Drawing kit and the Draftsman from APH, wikki sticks, string and
>> raised line graph paper, all used by the qualified sighted math
>> teacher, an aide and/or parents will be the answer. A few, very
>> bright
>> and accomplished, science and math students may have the opportunity
>> to learn all the skills, using various high tech, adaptive
>> equipment.
>> But, for most students, the low tech solutions remain the only,
>> realistic means by which they can be taught complex mathematical
>> concepts.  We can wish it were otherwise and proclaim that, to be
>> fair
>> and just it should be different, but that won't change things. There
>> are many practicalities working against high tech equipment
>> opportunities for most blind students, attending local schools. The
>> NFB has an outstanding record in working to give blind students
>> opportunities to excel in the fields of mathematics and science, but
>> this education question is a very complex, many factored issue and
>> the
>> answers aren't simple.
>>
>> Incidentally, in case any parents are worried about their child not
>> getting taught in their preferred learning style, I submit the
>> following for consideration. This is an unpopular truth, while the
>> concept of, learning styles, is very dear to the hearts of pop
>> science, and dear to the bank accounts of those who produce and
>> market
>> educational materials, and people use personal, anecdotal
>> experiences
>> to prove their existence to themselves, no real aptitude treatment
>> interaction has been proven to exist. Thus, when students are taught
>> in their preferred style by a teacher who teaches in that preferred
>> teaching style, and other classes containing students with all the
>> learning styles are taught with no special attention to learning
>> styles, when their school year learning outcomes are compared, the
>> difference in achievement is not significant. Note. I am not
>> referring
>> to the theory of multiple intelligences.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Heather Field
>>
>> Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 11:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Math technology
>>
>>
>> I am sure that there is variation, but my experience in upstate New
>> York is
>> that Boces the agency that provides special education services also
>> has
>> adaptive technology instructors that work with the schools, and if
>> they do
>> not have someone who has the expertese, then the Comission for the
>> Blind
>> will provide the service or track down someone who does provide the
>> service.
>> To the origonal woman who asked for the advice, what state are you
>> in?
>> Is
>> there something like Boces or Vesid or CBVH or a local blindness
>> organization?
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 11:35 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Math technology
>>
>>
>> You forget the raised-line drawing kit. And school districts in my
>> experience don't often have the real geeks of which you speak below.
>> It's
>> plug-and-play all the way!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Heather" <craney07 at rochester.rr.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 7:55 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Math technology
>>
>>
>> The key is to get the adaptive person who probably knows the
>> computer
>> technology of the embosser and the calculator, together with the
>> math
>> teacher who knows how graphs and the mathematical component works,
>> as
>> neither will be able to help your child on their own.  But geekese
>> is
>> pretty
>> similar in dialect between math geeks and computer geeks, so they
>> should be
>> able to figure it out.  And, yes, graphs and some type of graphing
>> calculator will be extremely neccessary, not "if it is absolutely
>> neccessary".  Tracing tools are alright, but there must be graph
>> paper
>> behind the tracing, as a general shape of the graph will not be
>> helpful, if
>> the child needs to assertain which exact point the vertix of the
>> perabola
>> passes through, or whether or not the sine curve is passing through
>> the
>> origin or not.  I hope this helps.  Oh, and as to affording it.  If
>> the
>> school fights it, remind them that A. she needs it, really and truly
>> needs
>> it, B. they can store it carefully and use it for other blind and VI
>> kids
>> coming up in the grades below her and in other schools in the
>> district
>> and
>> C. they are by law required to provide her equal opertunities in
>> education
>> in the least restrictive environment, which includes adapting the
>> graphs and
>> graphing technology for any level of math course that she is
>> cognatively and
>> accademically ready for and that is offered by the school.
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>> To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 9:35 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Math technology
>>
>>
>> I'd try to ascertain (a) who her algebra teacher will be next year
>> and
>> then
>> talk to him/her about the problem, emphasizing that you will assist
>> with
>> drawing of raised-line graphs and perhaps showing him a Sewell
>> raised-line
>> drawing kit to show how impromptu graphs can be made and (b) get a
>> copy of
>> the book to see how much it relies on whizbang technology as opposed
>> to
>> good, old-fashioned reasoning skills. Bear in mind that I am a
>> strong
>> advocate of writing out math problems on a brailewriter.
>>
>> If a graphing calculator proves absolutely necessary, I'd go with
>> one
>> that
>> can produce graphs on a Tiger embosser although for the life of me,
>> how any
>> parent can afford one or, for that matter, how a school district can
>> successfully use one when it probably hasn't got anyone with the
>> requisite
>> skills is beyond me.
>>
>> But one should always approach the problem from the standpoint that
>> it's
>> solvable, because it is. I hope that Steve Jacobson chimes in on
>> this
>> one
>> also.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind
>> children)'"
>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 5:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Math technology
>>
>>
>> so, Michael what suggestions do you have for her daughter as she
>> works
>> to
>> maintain her grade average and commitment to academic enrichment?
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>> who is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
>> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 11:07 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Math technology
>>
>> Pat:
>>
>> I'm sure many will disagree with me here but I could never fathom
>> how
>> audio
>> could accurately convey graphics to the blind. In my book, graphs
>> are
>> only
>> crutches to illustrate abstract concepts and math teachers are only
>> as
>> good
>> as they can deal with the abstractions without needing to "picture"
>> everything.
>>
>> Mike Freman, B.A. and M.S. in physics
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Pat Renfranz" <dblair2525 at msn.com>
>> To: "blindkid" <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 2:36 PM
>> Subject: [blindkid] Math technology
>>
>>
>> My daughter will be taking Algebra II next year in 9th grade. She
>> uses
>> Braille/Nemeth texts with tactile graphics. She's gotten by just
>> fine
>> with
>> relatively low-tech math tools.
>>
>> We are wondering if it would be useful for her to start using an
>> accessible
>> graphing calculator. Does anyone have any practical advice on using
>> one of
>> these programs? I am looking into the Audio Graphing Calculator from
>> ViewPlus and Math Trax from NASA. They both produce an audio signal
>> representing the shape of the function, while the AGC has the
>> advantage of
>> being able to produce tactile graphs on a Tiger embosser. Maybe
>> there
>> are
>> other products available? Our school district has no experience with
>> any of
>> them. Does anyone¹s teenager think this software is worth learning?
>>
>> We are a little nervous about this, because our experience has been
>> that,
>> math is great because you can pretty much always count on a
>> Brailler,
>> paper,
>> and sticky dots from the hardware store to NOT fail and to NOT
>> require
>> specialized training that gets in the way of actually learning the
>> material...
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any help.
>> Pat
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