[blindkid] MacBook Pro
Heather
craney07 at rochester.rr.com
Sat Feb 27 19:05:17 UTC 2010
I purchase a great deal from small, and we are talking very small companies
online. Some are a nice lady who makes awsum hand-made soaps, and her
daughter who designed her website or a couple who sells their organic honey
and maple syrup from their own land in Maine and their random unckle Bob did
up their web site for them. . Yes, that small. A lot of these sites are
minimally accessable, and I have no problem with that, because I'd rather
the world have the benifit of these lovely hand-made and home-made products
that are created in small batches with attention to detail, than to have
every site on the web be accessible or shut down. Honestly, and I am blind,
for the record, the portion of the population that is blind is small enough,
that I think the greater good of the entire population, blind and sighted
together needs to be the priority. I think that accessability, for any
disability should always be strivven for, but not at the cost of the general
population. All of the small companies I buy from are more than happy to
take time out of their personal days to help me out. And, we are not
talking about "Give me the list of what you want and your credit card
number, and I will run it for you." No, we are talking "Sure, I'd be happy
to read the full ingreediants lists for our soap and our body oils and our
body scrubs." "No problem, let me describe the patterns of these baby
carriers in detail for you, so that you can pick the best one for you, and
yes, I can look up a picture of the Vira Bradley pattern that your hand bag
and diaper bag are in, so that I can recommend which of our mei teis will go
best with your ensamble as a whole." "Here, I'll tell you about our
upcoming sale, since there's some flash on the little blerb that announces
new sales, that your computer won't read to you, and in fact, it sstarts
next week, but would you like to buy items from that release and the current
one, while we are on the phone together?" "Oh, I totally understand,
describe the style of cloth diapers that you bought from me and I would be
happy to go and find one off the shelf and read you the washing instructions
on the tag, since you can't read it, would you like me to send you a free
sample of my two favorite brands of organic soap for washing cloth diapers
while I'm at it?" And so on and so forth. These people I buy from know
organic foods, or soap making, or artisan cheeses, or amazing craftsmanship,
they do not usually know computers, and they usually do their best to design
their sites themselves, or have family friends do it for free, or for a
discounted rate. I'm not going to fault them for that. Many have taken
steps to make little subtle changes to their shopping cart software, forums
or online catalogs, so that they are easier for me to use. A huge
corperation can just shut their mouth and fix their site and stop hastling
the blind community, but smaller businesses should be forgiven their
inadaquate websites, and given gentle suggestions for improvement.
There is a beautiful old restaurant, off the beaten path, in, gah, trying to
remember, Oklahoma I believe, that my father and I went to, when we were
going across the united states trying to camp in as many states as possible.
It was old and rickity and pitted and scratched, in the historical way, not
the slummy way. It had a gorgeous sweeping viranda with a double
stairecase, one long set of steps coming down from each side, east and
west. That had cultural and historical significance for the owners. This
was a very very old building, at least a hundred years old. The food was
amazing, and the service and ambiance were really awsum. We passed it again
a year later, and it was completely ruened. When we asked the owners what
had happened, they explained that first a man in a wheelchair had come to
dine there, and had been told that they were very sorry, but there was no
ramp and no way for him to enter. They offered to deliver a meal to his
home, to bring a table out to the beautiful lawn just for him and his
guest(s), or to have one of their servers actually carry him up the steps
and then carry up his chair. This is a very small town we are talking
about. Apparently that wasn't good enough for this man who went to the
local media and got the police involved. So, the restaurant had a special
path and ramp built at the back of this restaurant, because, built into a
hill, the front was almost a full story above the ground, but in the back,
the staff/kitchen enterence is just a few feet above the ground. The man
said that "I'm not a second class citizen, I'm not going in the back door.
That's descrimination." The restaurant couldn't find any way to make the
front accessable, but to build a winding ramp, in concrete, that all but
obliterated the nice front lawn, forced several of the nice old trees to be
cut down, and completely obscured the view of the historic double stairway
which was hacked in half for the concrete ramp and supports to come all of
the way up to the front door. The locals kept coming, but the tourist
business died away, because of the changes to the building, and the place
closed, all for some crotchity old jerk in a wheelchair. Nobody who is in a
wheelchair, deaf, blind, etc wants to be hated, or to actively take away joy
and enjoyment from others, accept for this a--h---. It just drives me crazy
when I see extreamist groups pushing for changes that will not only benifit
them, but will make others misserable.
I agree that Target needs to comply, as they are loaded and can certainly
afford to fix their site, but I would actively oppose any legislation or
group who would try to insist that all businesses comply, even if it would
hurt their business or even cause it to close. There is an indian
restaurant that I go to, where I bring my dog in the side door, hustle him
under a table and enjoy my meal, because the dog was upsetting to many of
the Muslim, Indian and Packastani individuals who made up at least
seventy-five percent of the clientelle. I had all legal right to go there,
and I do go there with my dog, but I don't want to do something that might
cause the owners, extremely nice people, to lose business.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Holloway" <rholloway at gopbc.org>
To: "NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)"
<blindkid at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>I don't want to turn this into another huge debate as it seems a bit
>beyond the scope of the question that was asked as well as outside of this
>forum's general area of discussion.
>
> I don't think it is rhetoric to suggest that $10,000 is beyond the budget
> of a great many small companies or that there are a literally millions of
> personal and other small sites of various non-business- related functions
> which would have no reasonable chance of compliance. Now factor in every
> non-US based web site on the planet. This is just not simple to solve.
>
> Going after a Target or a Wal Mart sort of a company that is being
> unreasonable makes a good deal of sense but we're never going to
> **force** everyone to comply and even if we did, the negative reaction
> towards blind people by many who had been, at the least frustrated, and
> possibly even forced to remove web sites due to non-compliance could be
> substantial, to say the least.
>
> How about making businesses as aware as possible of the benefits of
> compliant sites and working with the likes of Adobe and other web design
> software sources to encourage every effort be made to help fledgling web
> designers produce sites that are as easy as possible for the physically
> disabled to navigate.
>
> At least that's where I'd start.
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:04 AM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>
>> I am familiar with this lawsuit. I would ask you to keep your mind open
>> to
>> considering how simple it is to make any site accessible, provided one
>> has
>> the IT knowledge, appreciation and understanding of universal design
>> when
>> crafting or updating a site. Without having all companies, federal or
>> otherwise, adhere to the section 508 compliance issues, our community of
>> blind students and adults will forever be at a critical disadvantage
>> and
>> will continue to be unemployed or under employed. It is not just the
>> web
>> sites we search that complicate it is the intra nets which also need to
>> be
>> accessible in order to shift the 70 to 80% unemployment rates amongst
>> the
>> blind. it is a simple coding process which would allow assistive
>> technologies and software to work. It is also not that expensive. My
>> company
>> and I have partnered with tecaccess.net to make accessibility for all a
>> reality. It costs a little over 10k for a small to mid size business to
>> make it's intra and inter nets accessible, and before you say how
>> expensive
>> that is, know that the government gives a 10k tax incentive or credit
>> once a
>> business makes their sites accessible. Schools, municipalities and any
>> institution getting federal funding are required by law to adhere to
>> these
>> laws, and there are federal grants available to offset the costs to make
>> sites compliant. I am working on making my county on long island the
>> most
>> compliant in our state and have meetings with every school district
>> scheduled for the 14th of April and a meeting with our town and county
>> officials to educate and mitigate this unfortunate avoidance of
>> adherence.
>> it is not all that expensive and when a tech team is introduced to the
>> concept they get it and say what have we been waiting for and they get
>> on
>> it. do not fall prey to the rhetoric of it is to expensive. it is not in
>> comparison to the dollars spent on public assistance and the loss of tax
>> revenues when we block employment for nearly 40 million people who can
>> work.
>> Assistive technologies are also options in peoples lives with paralysis
>> and
>> cognitive delays. It is economics 101, supply and demand. Demand
>> accessibility and they will supply it.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York 10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid- bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Richard Holloway
>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:44 AM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)
>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>
>> The NFB actually already sued Target over web concerns back in 2006.
>>
>> Here is a USA Today article from when this was first filed:
>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-25-blind_x.htm
>>
>> If you google Case No.: C 06-01802 MHP you can find many details of
>> the NFB case and the settlement.
>>
>> Part of me wants to jump on board and say yes, make everyone comply
>> but in reality the very nature of the web makes that unrealistic or
>> really just plain impossible. While we may be able to get a big
>> company like Target to comply by law, we have to remember too that
>> many web pages are setup by small groups or single individuals with
>> little budget or very often for no money.
>>
>> Many people could not afford to make existing sites compliment, and if
>> they were forced, all they could do would be to take the site off-
>> line; sort of the opposite result of what I think most of us would
>> hope to achieve.
>>
>> On the brighter side, I do think that over time design software
>> improvements alone will help future sites a lot. For example when I
>> upgraded to the CS3 release of Dreamweaver (web design software I like
>> to use) they had set a default to remind you to add alternative text
>> descriptions-- something that can be easy to overlook. I really think
>> that better educated web designers and improved software are the most
>> probable ways that most sites are going to improve in the future.
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>
>>> In that vein what are we as an organization doing to educate and
>>> mitigate
>>> in these instances? Ignorance is bliss but it is putting our
>>> community at a
>>> needless disadvantage. With all the technological advancements and the
>>> present legislation in place how do we effectively voice our need for
>>> attention to these details? It is simple to do yet without a law
>>> suit or a
>>> screaming match it seems little attention is paid to our inter and
>>> intra net
>>> access needs.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York 10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>> who is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Thea Eaton
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:48 PM
>>> To: 'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> Yes, all Flash content is accessible to JAWS, Window Eyes and Hal,
>>> as long
>>> as - just like in HTML- the content is tagged and set up for
>>> accessibility.
>>>
>>> Especially for older kids, I would choose a computer that can access
>>> Flash.
>>> Most high school textbooks are being migrated to the web, and will
>>> have
>>> Flash content. We have just finished a line of accessible enrichment
>>> activities for Harcourt School, for example, that accompany their
>>> online
>>> textbooks. All these activities are on the web, in Flash and go hand
>>> in hand
>>> with their textbooks. Pearson education is also migrating their
>>> assessments
>>> online, in Flash. Many of their educational eBooks are also Flash
>>> based. All
>>> these learning materials will not be accessible on a Mac, because
>>> you will
>>> only be limited to HTML content, which might be fine for browsing a
>>> large
>>> portion of the web, but any interactivity such as eBooks, learning
>>> materials, audio and video, will be inaccessible.
>>>
>>> Thea Eaton
>>> DoodleDoo
>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>> Where early birds learn.
>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 7:04 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>> I'm interested in the usefulness of the Mac for older kids. I hear
>>> comments
>>>
>>> like Heather's about her friend using the Mac so I'm really
>>> curious. My son
>>>
>>> is past the Cartoon Network stage.
>>>
>>> When he was younger, Flash sites he tried to access with JAWS were not
>>> accessible. I guess some of it depends on how the site is
>>> designed. I am
>>> sure that all Flash content is not compatible with JAWS. I'm going
>>> to check
>>>
>>> with the NFB Access Technology Team as Treva suggested to check on
>>> usefulness of the Mac for older kids. I think the suggestion to
>>> check with
>>> the student division is a good one too.
>>>
>>> Since it sounds like Apple is going to try to get the iPad placed as
>>> an
>>> academic tool and since NFB has worked with Apple to improve
>>> accessibility,
>>> I think the Mac may be a serious contender for older kids.
>>>
>>> Sally Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 3:49 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>
>>>
>>>> Apple's Voice Over screen reader is not compatible with Adobe Flash
>>>> content.
>>>> Screen readers that are Flash compatible like JAWS, Window Eyes and
>>>> Hal do
>>>> not have a Mac version. This would make all Flash websites for
>>>> children,
>>>> like Cartoon Network and other accessible Flash sites, inaccessible
>>>> on a
>>>> Mac. I would therefore not recommend a Mac for children who are
>>>> wanting to
>>>> use a screen reader to access the web.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-
>>>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:37 PM
>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>> I believe that it is only the Apple mobile devices that don't support
>>>> Flash.
>>>>
>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Thea Eaton" <thea at doodledoo.com>
>>>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children)'"
>>>> <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:05 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As far as I know, most of the screen readers do not run on the Mac.
>>>>> Apple's
>>>>> own screen reader is very limited to the OS, I think, and is not
>>>>> compatible
>>>>> with all internet content, like Flash. Because more and more Flash
>>>>> content
>>>>> is now made accessible to screen reader users, especially children's
>>>>> content, I would not recommend getting a Mac, but a PC with an MSAA
>>>>> compatible screen reader like JAWS.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thea Eaton
>>>>> DoodleDoo
>>>>> www.doodledoo.com
>>>>> Where early birds learn.
>>>>> 1-888-42 DOODLE
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> ] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Sally Thomas
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:27 AM
>>>>> To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] MacBook Pro
>>>>>
>>>>> Do any blind kids you know use a MacBook for school work? My son
>>>>> has an
>>>>> iPod Touch which he loves. He is even able to type and send email
>>>>> from
>>>>> it
>>>>> despite the touch screen. This has convinced him that a MacBook
>>>>> is the
>>>>> best
>>>>>
>>>>> computer for him. I'm wondering about the limitations of the
>>>>> built in
>>>>> screen reader or any other idiosyncrasies that would limit its use.
>>>>> Since
>>>>> it doesn't require the purchase of JAWS or other screen reading
>>>>> software,
>>>>> it
>>>>>
>>>>> might be a good choice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/thea%40doodledoo.c
>>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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