[blindkid] ADA Question

Sun Mar 16 13:58:41 UTC 2014

Did you mean 66 inches instead of 660 inches?  I like it there but it
is way too high for children or people in wheelchairs.  I know that
makes it easy for someone with low vision to read in most
circumstances.  I would guess, in an elementary school some changes
might be made.

On 3/15/14, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
> Yes, there are standards, and the sign is supposed to be on the wall
> adjacent to the door, on the latch side.  The "center line" of the
> sign is to be at 660 inches.
>
> Dave
>
>
>>I don't believe it has to be on the left or rightside of the door
>>because that would be hard to make work.
>>
>>Permanent signage is the law.  It should contain both braille and
>>large print with good contrast.  I believe there are standards. I
>>agree you must pick your battles.  I don't mean this to sound crude
>>but welcome to the rest of your daughter's life.  Adults who are blind
>>have to pick their battles too.  I have to decide when to take a stand
>>and when to let something go. Each of us makes a different choice
>>based on what is most important.  Braille signage in your daughter's
>>school may not be important but when she is an adult braille signage
>>in a hotel, hospital or large medical building may be very important.
>>
>>On 3/13/14, hpscheffer at aol.com <hpscheffer at aol.com> wrote:
>> > On this issue, is there a specific place where a blind person
>> might find the
>> > braille signs? how can they find it, do they have to feel around until
>> > they
>> > do? unless they are consistently in just one place, i.e. on the right
>> > side
>> > of a door, or on the door, I can't see my daughter spending time
>> looking for
>> > them, but there might be a strategy?
>> > Thanks
>> > Heidi
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Richard Holloway <rholloway at gopbc.org>
>> > To: Blind Kid Mailing List, (for parents of blind children)
>> > <blindkid at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Wed, Mar 12, 2014 11:21 pm
>> > Subject: Re: [blindkid] ADA Question Re:  Music camp? Another
>> > alternative!
>> >
>> >
>> > Carol, I agree that compliance is very important, but it does seem to
>> > beg
>> > the
>> > question: Exactly when is a facility in compliance or out?
>> >
>> > No Braille and they are clearly not in compliance-- that seems
>> simple enough.
>> >
>> > Put dymo labels by every doorway. In compliance now? Or must it be
>> > permanent?
>> > (How permanent IS permanent?)
>> >
>> > "Temporary" dymo tape with a promise to get "proper" signage
>> later?-- that's
>> > what
>> > we got. Seemed reasonable-- at least for the first year or so. We have
>> > been
>> > told
>> > for year after year that "the county" has agreed to replace the
>> > signage.
>> > They
>> > are going to do so "soon"... Maintenance has promised.... It is
>> on their list....
>> >
>> > How many dymo labels have to come down to be "out of compliance"?
>> > And if they make a decent effort (whatever that actually means) to keep
>> > replacing the dymo tape as it gets pulled down-- does that count?
>> >
>> > What about the other end of the spectrum-- what if you have seemingly
>> > permanent
>> > signs but the braille dots start falling out?  (Or if other
>> defects appear.)
>> > In
>> > compliance? I suspect not, but now get the BoEd to accept this to be
>> > true.
>> > (I'm
>> > not making this up-- we saw a whole school filled with such defective
>> > signs
>> > recently.) How many signs have to loose how much braille before
>> they are out
>> > of
>> > compliance? And who is going to notice this before a blind person is
>> > there
>> > and
>> > needs the signs to be working?
>> >
>> > Maybe our issues are rare. I wonder how many others have dymo
>> tape plastered
>> > all
>> > over their school hallways in lieu of more permanent signage.
>> >
>> > Another choice issue for younger students (plus most any any
>> braille-reading
>> > people in wheelchairs) is that by default, places tend to put the
>> > braille
>> > signage up too high for little kids to read. A typically-sighted three-
>> > or
>> > four-
>> > or five-year-old child may be able to read adult-height door numbers
>> > just
>> > fine,
>> > but a blind three-year-old's BRAILLE-reading height is somewhat more
>> > limited, so
>> > you end up with dymo-tape duplication down lower, or our little kids
>> > may
>> > just as
>> > well have no signage at all. I'd need to re-read all the ADA materials,
>> > but
>> > I
>> > wonder if there is a stipulation for braille for people too short to
>> > read
>> > standard door-plackard-height. I'm guessing there isn't, but surely
>> > since
>> > pre-K,
>> > our daughter has been learning to read door numbers in braille in her
>> > school. At
>> > least as soon as first grade, it was becoming quite important for her
>> > to
>> > have
>> > this skill.
>> >
>> > And all that aside, are more formal signs the priority to fight over
>> > when
>> > you
>> > can't even get textbook issues resolved properly? Don't
>> misunderstand me-- I
>> > want
>> > EVERYTHING my daughter should have in place at her school all the time,
>> > but
>> > reality is we sometimes have to choose our battles...
>> >
>> > As much as this may seem a black-and-white matter initially, I have
>> > personally
>> > run into an amazing number of shades of grey over a number of years...
>> >
>> > On Mar 11, 2014, at 10:24 PM, Arielle Silverman
>> <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Carol,
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for the clarifications about ADA covering the camp. Going
>> >> slightly off-topic here, but does ADA mandate Braille signs in school
>> >> buildings? If so, why do the vast majority of school buildings I've
>> >> frequented lack Braille signs?
>> >> Arielle
>> >>
>> >> On 3/11/14, Carol Castellano <carol_castellano at verizon.net> wrote:
>> >>> That is absolutely right.  At first parents fight for their child,
>> >>> but they also must be training the child to stand up for him or
>> >>> herself.  Self-advocacy is a critical skill and knowing our rights
>> >>> and responsibilities is a part of it.  When parents speak about
>> >>> blindness, laws, and civil rights our kids are listening and
>> >>> learning.  We are teaching them the vocabulary and modeling attitudes
>> >>> that they can then use to advocate for themselves.
>> >>>
>> >>> Carol
>> >>>
>> >>> Carol Castellano
>> >>> Parents of Blind Children-NJ
>> >>> Director of Programs
>> >>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> >>> 973-377-0976
>> >>> carol_castellano at verizon.net
>> >>> www.blindchildren.org
>> >>> www.nfb.org/parents-and-teachers
>> >>>
>> >>> At 07:27 PM 3/11/2014, you wrote:
>> >>>> Carol, this is great information for parents and students.  Those of
>> >>>> us who are blind adults advocate for ourselves regularly because of
>> >>>> discrimination and I believe it is a critical skill students need to
>> >>>> learn.  Parents are very important advocates for their children but
>> >>>> as
>> >>>> your sons anddaughters grow up they need to participate in and
>> >>>> eventually take over advocacy.  The Americans With Disabilities Act
>> >>>> is
>> >>>> a very important law that covers us in and out of public schools.
>> >>>> Please learn all you can about this law and help your children
>> >>>> understand it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 3/11/14, Carol Castellano <carol_castellano at verizon.net> wrote:
>> >>>>> Summer camps are places of public accommodation that fall under the
>> >>>>> ADA (except religious camps).  They are not allowed to discriminate
>> >>>>> on the basis of disability.  It is against the law.  A person who
>> >>>>> is
>> >>>>> "otherwise capable," meaning who meets the other qualifications of
>> >>>>> the camp, such as age or grade or musical interest, cannot be kept
>> >>>>> out solely on the basis of his or her disability.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Often when an entity such as a school or camp is discriminating,
>> >>>>> those in charge do not realize it.  They might think that they are
>> >>>>> only being practical or ensuring safety.  But the law is crystal
>> >>>>> clear and the camp administration needs to learn that.  I have used
>> >>>>> the phrase, "I'm sure you don't mean to be out of compliance with
>> >>>>> federal law..."  I sometimes mention that the family doesn't WANT
>> >>>>> to
>> >>>>> file a complaint with the Office on Civil Rights, but if they have
>> >>>>> to, they will...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Ideally, when a disabled person seeks entrance to this kind of
>> >>>>> place
>> >>>>> of public accommodation, a conversation is supposed to take place
>> >>>>> in
>> >>>>> which the camp and the parent/disabled person discuss the
>> >>>>> accommodations or modifications that could be made.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> There are 3 instances in which the disabled person may be
>> >>>>> rejected:  1) if acceptance would cause "undue hardship," defined
>> >>>>> as
>> >>>>> "significant difficulty or expense;" 2) pose a direct threat to the
>> >>>>> health or safety of others; or 3) alter the fundamental nature of
>> >>>>> the
>> >>>>> program.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> From a government website http://www.ada.gov/t3hilght.htm :
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "Safety requirements may be imposed only if they are necessary for
>> >>>>> the safe operation of a place of public accommodation. They must be
>> >>>>> based on actual risks and not on mere speculation, stereotypes, or
>> >>>>> generalizations about individuals with disabilities."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "A public accommodation must make reasonable modifications in its
>> >>>>> policies, practices, and procedures in order to accommodate
>> >>>>> individuals with disabilities."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "A public accommodation must provide auxiliary aids and services
>> >>>>> when
>> >>>>> they are necessary to ensure effective communication with
>> >>>>> individuals
>> >>>>> with hearing, vision, or speech impairments.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "Auxiliary aids" include such services or devices as qualified
>> >>>>> interpreters, assistive listening headsets, television captioning
>> >>>>> and
>> >>>>> decoders, telecommunications devices for deaf persons (TDD's),
>> >>>>> videotext displays, readers, taped texts, brailled materials, and
>> >>>>> large print materials."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> "The auxiliary aid requirement is flexible. For example, a brailled
>> >>>>> menu is not required, if waiters are instructed to read the menu to
>> >>>>> blind customers."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Other informative websites:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://www.pacer.org/publications/adaqa/summer.asp
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://www.acacamps.org/publicpolicy/ada-revisions
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hope this information helps, and GO GET 'EM, Crystal!!!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Carol
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Carol Castellano
>> >>>>> Parents of Blind Children-NJ
>> >>>>> Director of Programs
>> >>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children
>> >>>>> 973-377-0976
>> >>>>> carol_castellano at verizon.net
>> >>>>> www.blindchildren.org
>> >>>>> www.nfb.org/parents-and-teachers
>> >>>>> At 01:32 PM 3/9/2014, you wrote:
>> >>>>>> I just don't think it is right that they are advertising this camp
>> >>>>>> at his public school and then depending on the type of disability,
>> >>>>>> pick and choose who can attend. Why this camp? Because his Band
>> >>>>>> teacher is teaching at it and many of his classmates will be
>> >>>>>> attending. Everyone is talking about it. The teachers made it a
>> >>>>>> topic at his IEP meeting, so public school is indeed involved in
>> >>>>>> my
>> >>>>>> opinion. How can public school allow advertisement of a private
>> >>>>>> camp
>> >>>>>> that would discriminate against students with disabilities?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> What are the camps concerns? That he won't be able to navigate the
>> >>>>>> camp, that he won't be able to participate in the recreational
>> >>>>>> activities, and that the camp cannot meet his needs. In my
>> >>>>>> opinion,
>> >>>>>> they are afraid of blindness in general and have little
>> >>>>>> understanding of what it means to be blind. I feel the camp would
>> >>>>>> love for me to go away, that would make it easy for them. I
>> >>>>>> understand that in order to get into the "club" I need to make
>> >>>>>> them
>> >>>>>> feel comfortable and play by their rules. Most importantly, Ben
>> >>>>>> will
>> >>>>>> be paving the way for another blind student in the years to come.
>> >>>>>> As
>> >>>>>> someone once said, it is he opportunity to be equal, and the right
>> >>>>>> to be different. That's what were looking for.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Crystal
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 12:35:21 -0400
>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [blindkid] Music camp?  Another alternative!
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Eric,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Or should we go head strong into that camp and change
>> >>>>>>> perspectives
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>> understandings? Thinking being an activist  for change is a great
>> >>>>>>> thing
>> >>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>> this young man to champion.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If he is clear about what he is up against, and he is clear that
>> >>>>>>> there
>> >>>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>> supports in place to at least let him take that chance, pushing
>> >>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>> issue
>> >>>>>>> may be worth it in the end.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> >>>>>>> Founder and CEO
>> >>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> >>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> >>>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>> >>>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>> >>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>> >>>>>>> one
>> >>>>>>> who
>> >>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>> doing it."
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Like Us on Facebook  LinkedIn  Twitter
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>>> From: blindkid [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> >>>>>>> Eric
>> >>>>>>> Calhoun
>> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:30 PM
>> >>>>>>> To: blindkid at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> Subject: [blindkid] Music camp? Another alternative!
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Crystal, Eric, someone who knows Braille Music.  Four words for
>> >>>>>>> this
>> >>>>>>> Music
>> >>>>>>> Camp: Get, out, of, here!  They don't want Ben to be independent,
>> >>>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>> want him there without a chaperone?  Could we back away from this
>> >>>>>>> camp
>> >>>>>>> altogether?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Eric
>> >>>>>>> ..
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ..
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Sighted and blind people, Eric from Los Angeles.  Here's where
>> >>>>>>> you
>> >>>>>>> can
>> >>>>>>> find me: The all-new Stairs to Heaven Christian Line,
>> >>>>>>> 712-432-4808,
>> >>>>>>> Room
>> >>>>>>> 9;
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>> >>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>> eric at pmpmail.com, with the subject line, "The Eric Calhoun
>> >>>>>>> Magazine.";
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>> >>>>>>> and
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>> >>>>>>> www.emissives.com
>> >>>>>>> and
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>> >>>>>>> The
>> >>>>>>> Eric
>> >>>>>>> Calhoun Magazine is free of charge in your email!  You are the
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>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.o
>> >>>>>>> rg
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> -----
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>> >>>>>>>
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>> >>>>>> for blindkid:
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>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/crystal_schu%40hotmail.com
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>>>>> for blindkid:
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>> >>>> castellano%40gmail.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>>>
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>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>> >>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>> >>>> (513) 607-6053
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>>
>> >>>
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>> >>>
>> >>
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>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> >
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>>
>>
>>--
>>Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>(513) 607-6053
>
>
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-- 
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053