[blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College Students

Tue Sep 8 06:27:44 UTC 2009

I guess I was fortunate because I had a VR counselor here in California that 
provided all the needed technology.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College 
Students


> Hi Mike,
>
> Interesting. I'm far happier with OCR software. Much easier to go back and
> check things later; to search for certain words, etc. I think this is
> similar to how some sighted attorneys prefer to dictate materials to be
> transcribed while others prefer to do their own typing.
>
> I do agree with you that students need to be prepared for what they are
> likely to encounter in the workplace. That could very well be access to a
> scanner. I'm OK with scanning my own materials, but as I said before, I 
> also
> partly agree with those who think colleges and universities should provide
> this material in an accessible format.
>
> The law firm I will be working for has administrative assistants who do my
> scanning. I offered to do it; they felt that my time could be better 
> spent.
>
> I can't remember if I posted this before or not, but my final thought is
> that VR and colleges should make sure that students have access to OCR
> equipment that they are likely to use, the kind of stuff that can quickly
> and accurately do a job.
>
> Angie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Freeman
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 7:37 PM
> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
> With great respect, I believe we're missing the point when we say
> students should have "identical access". It never was, isn't now and
> never shall be. Why? Because the only way we, the blind, will ever have
> "identical access" is for us to gain or regain sight. For most of us,
> this ain't gonna happen. I believe that all we can realistically expect
> is enough access to do the job. No one ever said blindness wasn't a
> nuisance.
>
> but my thinking on this sort of thing is definitely old-fashioned
> although gentleman such as Steve Jacobson agree with me. And as for
> scanning, man, I'd much rather use a reader than spend time with OCR
> software!
>
> We're all missing the point of Chuck's message, however. And that is
> that once out on the job, it is unlikely that one can get the level of
> accommodation one apparently has a right to these days in college. Is it
> doing a student a favor to get him/her used to a level of provision of
> services he/she will not experience in the world of employment? I think
> not. And this comes home to roost when the frustrated new employee, used
> to what he/she got from the DSS office, howls "discrimination" when, in
> fact, it isn't discrimination but just the real world in action.
>
> But we're straying away from law here and marching headlong into
> philosophical debate. (grin)
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
> To: "NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 4:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
> I agree.  Students with disabilities should have identical access to
> whatever their sighted peers or peers without disabilities have.  I
> thought
> this was the intent of laws like the Americans With Disabilities act and
> other laws covering education of students with disabilities.
>
>
> Mike
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 6:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
> Students
>
>
>> Hello Chhuck,
>>
>> Actually, ,sighted students *do* have people who obtain their books
>> for
>> them. All they have to do is go to the book store and pay the proper
>> fee.
>> They don't have to convince publishers or authors that they deserve a
>> "special" copy of the book. The university obtains them as a matter of
>> course. Shouldn't it be the same for me? Shouldn't I be able to go to
>> the
>> book store, buy a book, and then read it?
>>
>> It's not acceptable for a student to wait weeks and weeks to get books
>> when
>> the technology exists that would enable the student to create her own
>> books
>> in a matter of hours. But it's impractical to ask students to deal
>> with
>> publishers in most situations, simply because publishers are not going
>> to
>> deal directly with students. They want assurances that their files are
>> not
>> going to be distributed indiscriminantly.
>>
>> To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of OCR technology. I don't know
>> how I
>> would have gotten through law school without the ability to scan my
>> own
>> books in a brief amount of time. But when I could get electronic
>> copies
>> from
>> the publishers, I did so. If the university could have produced an
>> etext
>> copy of every book as soon as I bought it (or nearly so), I would have
>> gladly let them do it. I don't think that would have made me less
>> independent. The problem is, the system is broken. I refused to be
>> weeks
>> behind in my reading because of the inability of the school and the
>> publishers to meet my needs for etexts.
>>
>> My ability to have nearly instant access to any book is liberating. I
>> also
>> like having some control over the process by which I obtain the books.
>> During school, I knew that if I wanted to read a supplemental text, I
>> could
>> do so without depending on overworked DSS staff and slow publishers.
>> But I
>> still believe, on some level, that this shouldn't be the way it is.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 5:32 PM
>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>> Actually, you further illustrate my point in that it really doesn't
>> make
>> any
>>
>> difference whether the student learns to take responsibility working
>> with
>> the publishers electronically or otherwise. The colleges shouldn't be
>> doing
>> this for students as it fosters dependence and enables them. Sighted
>> students don't have anyone obtaining their materials for them and
>> neither
>> should blind students. Officially, I would hope that NFB doesn't
>> support
>> these processes.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "WB" <mruniverse08 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'" <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>> Students
>>
>>
>>>I can see your point to an extent, Chuck.  While I agree for the need
>>>to
>>> lead an independent life through education into the workforce, the
>>> fact
>>> of
>>> the matter is that we are in a different time.  So many things are
>>> electronically based, whether it be for the disabled or not.  As we
>>> all
>>> know
>>> in the legal field, in the past few years there has been a
>>> considerable
>>> push
>>> to go paperless in the court system and firms.
>>>
>>> I don't believe that making this service available will necessarily
>>> make
>>> an
>>> individual less independent.  I think this service is catching up to
>>> the
>>> way
>>> society as a whole has gone...electronic.  When I studied to become a
>>> paralegal, I learned to shepherdize with books.  That is now really
>>> almost
>>> non-existent.  I'm thankful for being able to do that electronically
>>> now
>>> because of my loss of sight.
>>>
>>> Sometimes I think I may think a bit differently than those who have
>>> had
>>> vision impairments for most of their lives because I still view
>>> things
>>> predominately from a sighted person's perspective.
>>>
>>> But where you are correct is that individuals, disabled or not,
>>> should be
>>> able to also use the old way in case the electronic way is
>>> unavailable.
>>> But, as we know, we all adapt to what is necessary.
>>>
>>> It was great reading your comments on this.
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of ckrugman at sbcglobal.net
>>> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:43 PM
>>> To: NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>> While this sounds good on the surface a drawback to this is that
>>> disabled
>>> students are losing their choices to be independent by having to
>>> register
>>> as
>>>
>>> being disabled and allowing the college to assume responsibility for
>>> producing and locating textbooks. I realize I'm dating myself here
>>> but I
>>> learned many valuable skills by having to procure and arrangement for
>>> use
>>> of
>>>
>>> text materials in an available format. These skills included the
>>> supervision
>>>
>>> of personnel (readers) a valuable skill transferable to the real work
>>> of
>>> employment where supervision of staff is necessary, procuring
>>> materials
>>> in
>>
>>> a
>>>
>>> timely manner a transferable skill of meeting deadlines and insuring
>>> that
>>> materials would be available. and an ability to be self-reliant
>>> learning
>>> to
>>> find and create available resources and development of increased
>>> problem
>>> solving skills. Unfortunately, too many disabled students blind or
>>> otherwise
>>>
>>> lack these skills today and as a result are ill equipped to
>>> adequately
>>> compete in the real world of employment when programs such disabled
>>> services
>>>
>>> do not exist in the real world. In many cases the development and use
>>> of
>>> such systems prevent students from addressing individual needs with
>>> faculty
>>> members as they would have to do when they are on their own in an
>>> employment
>>>
>>> setting.
>>> Chuck
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 7:42 PM
>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Textbooks for disabled, Particularly College
>>> Students
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>
>>
> <http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/08/28/access>http://www.insidehighe
>>> red.com/news/2009/08/28/access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Textbooks for the Disabled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>August 28, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>>The Association of American Publishers and the University of Georgia
>>>>>this
>>>>>week unveiled an electronic database aimed at making it easier for
>>>>>blind,
>>>>>dyslexic and otherwise impaired college students to get specialized
>>>>>textbooks in time for classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>The database, called <http://www.accesstext.org/>AccessText, is
>>>>>designed
>>>>>to centralize the process by which electronic versions of textbooks
>>>>>are
>>>>>requested by colleges and supplied by publishers. Experts say it
>>>>>will
>>>>>allow disabled students to get their textbooks more efficiently,
>>>>>help
>>>>>colleges save money and avoid lawsuits, and protect publishers'
>>>>>copyrights.
>>>>>
>>>>>For students whose disabilities prevent them from using traditional
>>>>>texts,
>>>
>>>>>the normally straightforward task of acquiring books for their
>>>>>courses
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be tedious and frustrating. Federal law requires that colleges and
>>>>>universities provide disabled students equal access to educational
>>>>>materials, but this is often easier said than done. College
>>>>>officials
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>to track down and contact the publisher of every textbook that each
>>>>>of
>>>>>its
>>>
>>>>>disabled students buys and request an electronic copy. If such a
>>>>>copy
>>>>>exists -- the likelihood shrinks the older the book and the smaller
>>>>>the
>>>>>publisher -- college officials still have to convert the file to a
>>>>>format
>>>>>that can be read by whatever reading aid the student uses. If not,
>>>>>the
>>>>>college has to wait, sometimes weeks, to obtain permission to scan
>>>>>the
>>>>>book and create its own electronic version.
>>>>>
>>>>>Once a college has an electronic copy, converting to a readable
>>>>>format
>>>>>can
>>>
>>>>>be another complex process, says Sean Keegan, associate director of
>>>>>assistive technology at Stanford University. Math and science texts
>>>>>often
>>>>>arrive as scanned pages, and cannot always be easily read by the
>>>>>character-recognition software the university uses to turn them into
>>>>>standard electronic files, Keegan says. "That can take a longer
>>>>>amount
>>>>>of
>>>>>time to process that material internally and turn it around and give
>>>>>that
>>>>>to the student efficiently," he says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Meanwhile, delays in the process can make it impossible for disabled
>>>>>students to prepare for and participate in classes. "Students need
>>>>>to
>>>>>have
>>>
>>>>>a book in time so they can do the assigned reading and study for
>>>>>tests
>>>>>and
>>>
>>>>>papers," says Gaeir Dietrich, interim director of high-tech training
>>>>>for
>>>>>the California Community Colleges system. "So if the book doesn't
>>>>>come
>>>>>until the term has been in session for three or four weeks, that
>>>>>puts
>>>>>that
>>>
>>>>>student very far behind." Some students have sued colleges over such
>>>>>delays, she says.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText aims to mitigate these woes by streamlining the request
>>>>>and
>>>>>delivery process, says Ed McCoyd, executive director for
>>>>>accessibility
>>>>>affairs at AAP.
>>>>>
>>>>>"There's a lot of transactional friction taking place currently,"
>>>>>says
>>>>>McCoyd. "What AccessText is trying to do is take some of that out of
>>>>>the
>>>>>transaction by having parties agree to streamlined rules up front."
>>>>>
>>>>>Having colleges submit requests using the AccessText portal should
>>>>>eliminate the need for the publishers to require endless paperwork
>>>>>with
>>>>>each request to protect its copyrights, McCoyd says. Under the
>>>>>system,
>>>>>the
>>>
>>>>>copyright protection agreements can be handled once, during
>>>>>registration,
>>>>>and the requester's bona fides can be verified by a log-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Currently, colleges that get tired of waiting for publishers to
>>>>>process
>>>>>the paperwork and procure an electronic copy of a text sometimes
>>>>>just
>>>>>scan
>>>
>>>>>a text themselves to try to satisfy the needs of disabled students
>>>>>in a
>>>>>timely fashion, says Dietrich.
>>>>>
>>>>>AccessText is also set up to eliminate the need for different
>>>>>colleges
>>>>>to
>>>>>convert the same text to a readable format once it is acquired.
>>>>>Currently
>>>>>"numerous schools could be doing the exact same thing, converting
>>>>>the
>>>>>same
>>>
>>>>>text," says Bruce Hildebrand, executive director for higher
>>>>>education at
>>>>>the publishers' association. Under the new system, "if one school
>>>>>has
>>>>>already spent the time and the money to convert a file to a format,
>>>>>they
>>>>>could advise the AccessText network, which could then make the info
>>>>>available that it was still available in that format, and that
>>>>>school
>>>>>could share it with another school" -- thereby sparing those
>>>>>colleges
>>>>>the
>>>>>time and resources it would have used to convert the file
>>>>>themselves, he
>>>>>says.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eight major publishing houses paid a total of just under $1 million
>>>>>to
>>>>>develop the AccessText network and maintain it through its beta
>>>>>phase,
>>>>>which will end next July. From then on, it will sustain itself by
>>>>>billing
>>>>>member colleges between $375 and $500 annually, depending on size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dietrich notes that community colleges might not benefit from the
>>>>>AccessText network as much as other institutions, since "we have a
>>>>>lot
>>>>>more vocational classes and basic-skills classes, and a lot of those
>>>>>books
>>>
>>>>>don't come through those big publishers, they come through
>>>>>specialized
>>>>>publishers," she says. "It doesn't solve that part of the problem
>>>>>for
>>>>>us."
>>>>>
>>>>>The network includes 92 percent of all college textbook publishers
>>>>>and
>>>>>is
>>>>>recruiting even more, according to AAP officials.
>>>>
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