[blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
Angie Matney
angie.matney at gmail.com
Wed Dec 19 19:33:55 UTC 2018
Rahul, Thank you for this information and for producing a sample document.
Thanks also for the alternate ways to see how a document looks when all changes are accepted. I often need to have "clean" files that either incorporaqe or reject all revisions. I do this with the "accept all changes" and "reject all changes" commands, which can be accessed with alt-r, a, l, and alt-r, j l in Word 2016, respectively.
Thanks again. I'm going to experiment with custom keystrokes.
Angie
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 19, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Rahul Bajaj via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I will definitely share a document by tomorrow which in fact has more
> revisions than are captured by the list of revisions in the virtual
> viewer. I have a document at this juncture which has 105 revisions as
> per the list and the number seems to be the same as per my manual
> calculation, so I will make around 300 more random revisions to it to
> be able to drive home the disconnect between the revisions manually
> discernible and those automatically listed.
>
> Angie,
>
> In order to set key strokes for moving to previous and next revisions,
> in word 16, you have to go into file (which is before the home tab
> when you press alt in Word)> options> customize> popular commands>
> review. Then if you press tab, you will be presented with a list from
> which you can choose "previous change/ comment" and "next change/
> comment" respectively. You can set a keystroke for each by pressing
> tab and entering the keystroke in the appropriate field. I have set
> them as alt+left arrow for previous and alt+ right arrow for next.
>
> Also, as regards your latest email, 2 solutions which might help you are:
>
> 1. copy-pasting a document with track changes turned on into a new
> document. This results in all the changes being automatically
> accepted.
> 2. In Word 16, go to review> tracking> display for review> no mark-up
> to see how the document would look if all changes were accepted.
> Please see for more information:
> https://support.office.com/en-us/article/track-changes-in-word-197ba630-0f5f-4a8e-9a77-3712475e806a
>
> Best,
> Rahul<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
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>> On 19/12/2018, Angela Matney via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I wanted to supplement this thread with an example from this afternoon. I've
>> been tasked with reviewing certain edits to an agreement between our client
>> and a vendor located in Germany. The document contains both English and
>> German text, and the bulk of it is presented as a table in MS Word with
>> three columns (numbering, English text, and German text) and 242 rows. I
>> used the JAWS command to list revisions. JAWS seemed to process this for a
>> few seconds, but ultimately, both JAWS and MS-Word crashed and had to
>> restart.
>>
>> I used the "reject all changes" and "accept all changes" commands in Word to
>> produce versions with and without the edits. Unfortunately, I have trouble
>> with the most recent iteration of our document comparison software, even
>> though its output is accessible. I sent these two documents to my assistant,
>> who will prepare a blackline for me that does not make use of track-changes.
>> (I could also have asked her to reject and accept the changes to produce the
>> baseline documents, but I chose to do that part of it myself.)
>>
>> While I don't typically deal with documents that have text in more than one
>> language, or documents that are almost completely in tabular format, this is
>> not the first time, and it won't be the last. Reliable support for
>> track-changes in complex documents would be a game-changer for me.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 10:44 AM
>> To: Angela Matney <amatney at loeb.com>
>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>; slabarre at labarrelaw.com;
>> tim at timeldermusic.com
>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>
>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network.
>>
>> OK, this is great.
>>
>> Scott, let me know if you have trouble following all of this if you
>> are planning to outline in the letter our various issues with Jaws.
>> As I see it, the problem is that Jaws ostensibly provides two ways of
>> obtaining track change info. Both are woefully inaccurate and
>> inadequate. It'd be fine with me if they scrapped one or the other
>> method, so long as **one** of them worked reliably.
>>
>> Rahul, I'd love it if you could generate a document, as I have a very
>> busy few weeks coming up (which, incidentally, will involve many, many
>> trackchanges. Ha!). If you are done with finals, perhaps you could
>> generate a doc and then angie and I could test it as well to see what
>> we come up with. It'd be great if someone with Office 365 could hop
>> on this as well, so that FS can't respond by saying "we're putting all
>> our efforts into making Office 365 work properly, and it's too bad for
>> the rest of you."
>>
>> Angie, perhaps under a different thread heading, you could let us know
>> how you use comparison software as a work-around to some of this. I
>> have access to workshare compare, for instance, and if you have ways
>> of using that to alleviate some of this headache, I'd love to hear
>> them. And perhaps in the short-term, we could ask for that program as
>> an accommodation (yes, yes, I know this isn't ideal, but we also must
>> get our work done).
>>
>> Lastly, Rahul, I'll write you off-list about your PDF issues so that I
>> can be in touch with FS.
>>
>> Thanks, everyone! This is the teamwork I love so much that the NFB
>> provides. Anyone else with input, please voice your opinions.
>>
>> Laura
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 12/19/18, Angela Matney <amatney at loeb.com> wrote:
>>> Laura,
>>>
>>> I have had similar experiences. JAWS often reads both the original and
>>> revised text and fails to announce some revisions. I have problems with
>>> it
>>> reliably announcing comments as well. I'm able to use our document
>>> comparison software as a work-around some of the time, but there are many
>>> situations where being able to use track-changes would be helpful, and
>>> our
>>> software doesn't help with the comments issue.
>>>
>>> Frankly, I wish that JAWS would not try to "interpret" track-changes to
>>> the
>>> extent it does. I think I could be more efficient if it would just read
>>> changes in the font, attribute and color and let me figure things out. We
>>> can produce documents like this with our document management software.
>>> When
>>> JAWS tells me that something is blue and double-underlined, for example,
>>> I
>>> recognize it as an insertion.
>>>
>>> If you would like some help generating a file with lots of revisions, or
>>> if
>>> you'd like me to test something you generate, let me know.
>>>
>>> Angie
>>>
>>>
>>> Angela Matney, CIPP/US
>>> Attorney at Law
>>> Admitted only in Virginia
>>>
>>> 901 New York Avenue NW, Suite 300 East | Washington, DC 20001
>>> Direct Dial: 202.618.5038 | Fax: 202.403.3407 | E-mail: amatney at loeb.com
>>> Los Angeles | New York | Chicago | Nashville | Washington, DC | San
>>> Francisco | Beijing | Hong Kong | www.loeb.com
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Laura Wolk via
>>> BlindLaw
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 8:13 AM
>>> To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com
>>> Cc: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>; tim at timeldermusic.com; Blind Law
>>> Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>>
>>> This email originated from outside of Loeb's Network.
>>>
>>> Scott,
>>>
>>> I appreciate this so much. Please let me know if you'd like any
>>> assistance. Regarding what to put in the letter, do other people also
>>> have the experience, as I do, that Jaws will read both the original
>>> and edited text when you're reading through a document? This didn't
>>> used to happen to me, but now it does. I'm using Office 2016, Windows
>>> 10, and hte latest version of Jaws. Additionally, I find that Jaws
>>> doesn't always announce "revision" when it detects track changes. Can
>>> others confirm? This has the end result that relying on the file's
>>> contents rather than the generated list also does not give the user
>>> accurate information unless he engages in rather cumbersome
>>> character-by-character analysis.
>>>
>>> For the record, I did a bit more poking around on my file. I tried
>>> hitting ctrl+end as Rahul suggested, and that actually turned out
>>> fewer revisions. The list also only went to page 9 of a 25-page
>>> document. It gave me 154 revisions, when there were probably closer
>>> to 400, and of course, as always, absolutely no info from footnotes.
>>>
>>> If no one else is able to assist, I will attempt to generate a file
>>> with a few hundred track changes for FS to work with. Perhaps this
>>> could accompany the NABL letter.
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>>> On 12/18/18, Scott C. LaBarre <slabarre at labarrelaw.com> wrote:
>>>> Hello everyone, I've been following this thread with great interest and
>>>> I
>>>> am
>>>> going to work on a letter from the National Association of Blind Lawyers
>>>> to
>>>> VFO about this issue and will likely also write MicroSoft. Let me also
>>>> take
>>>> this moment to wish all of you the very best of this holiday season.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Tim Elder via
>>>> BlindLaw
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2018 5:01 PM
>>>> To: 'Laura Wolk' <laura.wolk at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: tim at timeldermusic.com; 'Blind Law Mailing List'
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>>>
>>>> Understood. I forwarded this to a contact at Microsoft to see if they
>>>> could
>>>> do anything while we wait on whatever the developer of JAWS is calling
>>>> itself these days. I've also been slowly learning NVDA to diversify my
>>>> technology tools.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 6:25 PM
>>>> To: tim at timeldermusic.com
>>>> Cc: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>>>
>>>> Nope. Not an option. And though 2010 didn't crash nearly as much as the
>>>> newer versions, it still couldn't handle documents with more than a
>>>> hundred
>>>> or so revisions. Which, you know, is basically every round of editing a
>>>> brief or large filing of any kind. Using 2010 was my work-around for 6
>>>> years. But I'm really getting fed up. It'd be great if we all
>>>> colectively
>>>> could put pressure on Jaws to actually give us the tools we need to
>>>> succeed
>>>> and be on equal footing with our peers.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 17, 2018, at 8:05 PM, <tim at timeldermusic.com>
>>>> <tim at timeldermusic.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Track changes in newly created Word documents still work reliably in
>>>> Office 2010 if using an older machine for this kind of task is an
>>>> option.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Laura Wolk <laura.wolk at gmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:22 AM
>>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Update on Jaws and Track Changes
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm providing an update to this topic, as it generated a lot of
>>>>> traffic
>>>> and I'd love to spare another lawyer the risk of relying on this $1,000
>>>> disappointment to his professional detriment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jaws still does not announce the correct number of revisions.
>>>>> Instead, after taking up to 30 or 45 seconds sometimes, it will
>>>>> announce a
>>>> much larger number that still isn't always accurate. This is actually
>>>> worse
>>>> than when it simply said there were no revisions to display, since we
>>>> all
>>>> knew that was incorrect. now it gives the false sense of security that
>>>> you
>>>> have, in fact, looked at every revision when there could be a hundred
>>>> more
>>>> that are not displaying that you haven't reviewed. note that though
>>>> this
>>>> isn't a terrible inconvenience when you are integrating all changes into
>>>> one
>>>> draft from only one document, it is a huge problem if you are receiving
>>>> multiple streams of edits from multiple sources that you are trying to
>>>> accept/reject and then compile into one final draft. So be forewarned,
>>>> Jaws
>>>> is sstill failing abysmally at providing us with the elementary tools
>>>> needed
>>>> in 2018 to maintain "Job access."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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