[blindlaw] Seeking guidance
Maura Kutnyak
maurakutnyak at gmail.com
Wed Dec 26 23:00:13 UTC 2018
Hi Luis,
How lovely it is to have your voice added to this spunky discourse. You identified 2 areas in public sector work which are of interest to me. Policy development and management of third sector government proxies are both close to my heart. I took administrative law this past semester as an elective in my program. I loved it despite how a drift in a foreign language the course work made me feel at times.
I only just joined the list. So, I have not been exposed to some of the recent conversations about the practice of law. Thank you for pointing me in that direction. I will absolutely answer your openness to questions when they arise. It is fantastic to have access to willing founts of knowledge.
Warmly,
Maura .
On Dec 26, 2018, at 5:34 PM, Luis Mendez via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Good evening:
>
> An MPA will certainly enable you to obtain public sector employment at a
> fairly high level of compensation. An MPA plus successful job experience
> may also facilitate, though not guarantee, opportunities for promotion,
> including promotion to high level appointed executive positions. A law
> degree might, but would not necessarily enhance those opportunities.
> However, a law degree could open opportunities for legal employment in
> either the public or private sector, including enhancing opportunities to
> provide policy and legislative consulting services. Although I practiced law
> in the public sector, my MPA proved helpful in assisting my employer to
> address office management issues and managing the work of consultants and
> other contractors. If I can be of further help please don't hesitate to
> contact me.
>
> Luis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Maura Kutnyak via
> BlindLaw
> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2018 11:45 AM
> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Maura Kutnyak <maurakutnyak at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>
> Where to start?
> First, I thank you all for taking time to supply thoughtful
> responses. In addition too the many possible stumbling blocks outlined, I
> suffer from a large measure of ambivalence. Presumably the only way to know
> for sure if I want to be a lawyer is to undertake and complete the process.
> What follows will be largely autobiographical and likely too long. My
> gratitude to those who devote time to reading.
>
> At the beginning of December on my 36 birthday I quit a call center
> job at the nonprofit which supplies services to the blind in western NY. I
> was employed there from the age of 19 in essentially the same position.
> What I want out of law school and life in general is to be situated in
> employment which is stimulating, has opportunity for upward mobility and
> pays a wage commensurate with my ability. I believe that kind of work will
> never be supplied by agencies for the blind which hold so many of us
> captive.
>
> I plan to apply to one and only one school. Because that is the
> precise number of law schools which are at arms length. Because I have
> young children I am not willing to bounce around in pursuit of this
> questionable goal.
>
> I am closing in on having attained masters level education with no
> student debt. This is thanks to the state agency and its support. That
> said, I am not terrified of the prospect of loans. We own a home and have
> other foundations laid.
>
> Based on almost no firsthand information, I do not want to work at a
> firm. I am completing my masters in public administration so the hope is
> that a JD. would support employment in government at a reasonably high level
> to start. So a pivot point for me is, would the law degree get me closer to
> the wage and policy oriented type of work in which I am interested? Or,
> would diving right into civil service exams and a low level position
> ultimately be a faster path to meaningful work? Either way once I finish
> this masters I will be committing to at least full time work. Directly in
> the bureaucracy or in the hallowed halls of UB law school. By the way, its
> a comfort to know that UB is in good company accepting the GRE.
>
> Warm regards,
>
> Maura
> On Dec 26, 2018, at 10:05 AM, James T. Fetter via BlindLaw
> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
>> I think this question has been framed the wrong way. The real question is,
> or should be, do you want to become a lawyer? If so, then law school is the
> only means to that end, , for better or worse.
>>
>> A few points:
>>
>> 1. Law school is expensive; no doubt about that. But there are ways to
> mitigate that expense: scholarships, loan repayment assistance programs for
> people with public interest jobs, etc. I went into the application process
> knowing that I did not want to pay a dime in tuition. I got an LSAT score
> that was good enough but nothing to write home about and landed a full
> tuition scholarship to Ohio State--a bit below my desired ranking cutoff but
> good for me for a variety of other reasons. So I went and have no regrets,
> albeit a bit less hair than I did before starting.
>>
>> 2. The LSAT is hard. Sure it is, but it is more than possible to do well
> with self-study using prep materials. The only problem is the games section,
> for which there are no accessible study aids--at least not to my knowledge.
>>
>> 3. Law school is a huge time suck. Sure it is, as is grad school, as is
> just about every other intense form of career preparation.
>>
>> 4. The legal job market is terrible. It's not great, but it is a ton
> better than the academic job market. Take my word for it.
>>
>> 5. Only lower-tier schools accept the GRE. Well, no, since Harvard now
> accepts the GRE.
>>
>> 6. There's no point in going to law school unless you are in the T20.
> Again no, because plenty of law grads outside the T20, and even outside of
> tier 1 schools, get jobs. The real problem is, and continues to be,
> employment discrimination. I finished in the top 10% of my class at Ohio
> State, was on law review, and checked all the other boxes that big firms
> like. Guess how many big firms in Ohio wanted me? That would be zero. But I
> landed a job at a great firm, and although I don't like talking salary,
> let's say it's higher than $35k.
>>
>> 7. Law school is a scam. Again, not really, at least not unless you're
> looking at the huge diploma mills with terrible job placement numbers.
> Whatever else you do, look at your desired school's job placement numbers,
> NALP tracks these. If they're too low for you, then write that school off
> and move on.
>>
>> On 12/25/2018 5:35 PM, Kelby Carlson via BlindLaw wrote:
>>> I am going to be the contrarian here and say that, absent some very
>>> specific circumstances, you probably should not go to law school. I
>>> will explain why at some length.
>>>
>>> First, law school is extremely expensive. We are talking at least
>>> $40,000 per year, and considerably more than that if you want to
>>> attend a good school (which you do, as I'll get to in a moment.)
>>> There are scholarships, of course, but they are competitive and there
>>> aren't that many. If you are planning on being an evening student,
>>> you can add another year of tuition to your costs. You may be able to
>>> get a state agency to pay for some of the education. I am not sure
>>> how your vocational rehabilitation handles career transitions like
>>> the one you envision. It is still likely, however, that you will be
>>> taking on a considerable amount of debt. This debt is probably going
>>> to be very difficult to pay off unless you get an extremely high-paying
> job.
>>>
>>> Let's talk about law school a little more specifically. You were
>>> asking whether or not you should take the GRE or the LSAT. I am not
>>> familiar with the law schools that accept GRE schools, but I suspect
>>> they are in the minority. THe schools that will give you the best
>>> chance at a good job will almost certainly want an LSAT score, and
>>> your chances of getting a scholarship are considerably higher with
>>> one. The LSAT is a demanding test. Believe me when I say that
>>> self-study is probably not a good idea, and considerable study is
>>> required. (I did not take a course and am positive my score suffered
>>> for it.) As was stated above, the LSAC is miserly with accommodations
>>> even after the 2015 consent decree requiring them to grant more and
>>> better accommodations to those with disabilities. (I can say this
>>> with some confidence as I just took the MPRE, which is administered
>>> by the
>>> LSAC.) So be prepared to pay a decent amount for a prep course, to
>>> study a lot (and to learn nothing of relevance), and to spend several
>>> months trying to get accommodations.
>>>
>>> If you get a high LSAT score, you have a better chance of getting a
>>> spot at a good law school. If you cannot get into a top 20 law
>>> school, you shouldn't even bother going. (I went to the Columbus
>>> School of Law, which is underrated but still nowhere near the top.)
>>> The top 20 schools are the only ones that give a really, really
>>> strong chance of knabbing a high-paying job or a prestigious
>>> clerkship right after law school. You will want one of those given
>>> the debts you will probably accrue during your studies.
>>>
>>> If you go to law school, you need to realize a number of things.
>>> First of all, you will be getting a three year education that should
>>> probably be two or even one year. You will essentially repeat your
>>> entire first year over again while studying for the bar exam. Second,
>>> all law school exams and some law school papers are graded on a curve.
>>> This means that not only will you need to do very well objectively,
>>> you will need to do better than all of your classmates consistently
>>> over 6 semesters to maintain a high GPA. (If you are thinking about
>>> trying for a 4.0, know that my school's head registrar said that he
>>> has seen only one student ever receive a perfect GPA.) If you are not
>>> in the top 10 percent of your class, finding a high-paying job that
>>> will give you good experience will be extremely difficult unless you
>>> are fabulous at networking.
>>>
>>> Keep in mind also that law school takes up all your time. if you are
>>> an evening student with a full-time job, you will have very limited
>>> time to spend with your family over the next four years if you want
>>> to maintain an extremely high GPA. The material you will be studying
>>> is extremely dry, but you will need to know all of it cold by exams.
>>> Your exams will probably all be closed-book; if they are open-book,
>>> however, they might actually be harder--professors will often up the
>>> difficulty of their exams if they allow you to use the book or the
>>> outline.
>>>
>>> If you want to do law review or journal as an evening student--this
>>> is possible, I know several people who did--you will be devoting even
>>> more time to largely thankless, tedious work for which you will never
>>> be acknowledged. (If spending hours correcting minor grammatical
>>> errors in citations and trying to handle MS Word's abhorrent footnote
>>> interface appeals to you, than journal is definitely for you.)
>>>
>>> So, all in all, law school itself is a tiring, unpleasant experience
>>> that will waste a lot of your time. I am speaking as someone who
>>> really liked his law school and has some very fond memories of it.
>>>
>>> Let's move on to the question of what else you will be doing in law
>>> school. If you do not get internships after your first year during
>>> the summer and probably every semester thereafter, you are dooming
>>> your potential in the job market. Much like scholarships, internships
>>> are extremely competitive but absolutely necessary if you are going
>>> to get the most out of your legal education. You will need to find an
>>> internship that will actually give you meaningful work, which is
>>> harder than it sounds. You will also probably want to find one that
>>> pays, which is extremely difficult. The best kind of internship is a
>>> summer associate position between your second and third years of
>>> school, but this is a full-time position that will be harder to
>>> arrange if you are an evening students. Once again, if you aren't
>>> extremely highly ranked in your class your chances are low.
>>>
>>> Let's say that you don't manage to grab a lot of paying internships,
>>> but you do get several government internships and maintain decent
>>> grades throughout law school (as I did). In your third year you will
>>> then begin applying for jobs and judicial clerkships. You will
>>> probably send out hundreds of applications and get responses from
>>> almost no one. If you want to clerk with a federal judge, you will
>>> have already begun applying your second year of law school because
>>> most federal judges are looking two years out. Much like prestigious
>>> firm jobs, federal clerkships are highly coveted because of their
>>> resume-building potential and you will be extremely lucky to get one.
>>> Even state clerkships will be challenging to obtain; hundreds of law
>>> students will be applying for each one. If you are lucky you will
>>> perhaps get around ten interviews. If you are extremely lucky you
>>> will get offered a job by more than one employer. However, unless you
>>> have managed to obtain a high-paying job at a large firm your
>>> dividends will not be large. I will give you my own example: by the
>>> time I had obtained employment out of law school it was as an
>>> attorney in a very rural county making $35,000 a year. And you know
>>> what? I was ecstatic when I received the offer, even though I would
>>> be making $5,000 less a year than my wife who works as a nanny.
>>>
>>> So, you need to ask yourself several questions. First, can you get
>>> into a top 20 law school? Second, what kind of law will you practice?
>>> What makes you particularly well-equipped to do so? If you cannot
>>> answer this question, then you will not be able to effectively plan
>>> your career during law school. Third, are you willing to sacrifice
>>> the time and financial rewards you could have received, and incur a
>>> potentially large amount of debt? Fourth, can you confidently say
>>> that you can maintain a consistently high GPA at a prestigious school
>>> and procure good internships (which may not pay) every semester of
>>> law school? If your answer to any of those questions is no, you
>>> should not go.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, law school is worth it for almost no one and is
>>> basically a scam. The legal job market is terrible, but law schools
>>> will not make this clear to you because they are desperate to
>>> maintain their student body (many of them expanded pre-recession and
>>> are trying to recover.) If you do get a job, it will probably not pay
>>> well, and it it does you may very well end up hating it, because the
>>> legal profession is nothing like how it is portrayed on television.
>>> This video is essentially accurate:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM7K0LtkAvs
>>>
>>> I hate to be the one to rain on everyone's parade. I'm sure there
>>> will be many people who disagree with me here, some perhaps
>>> justifiably (Laura Wook, a member of this list, clerks for Clarence
>>> Thomas.) But I feel that I needed to state these things because a lot
>>> of people will not.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Kelby Carlson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/24/18, Nicole Poston via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> All,This is a very interesting thread for me. In some ways, I am
>>>> not like Maura....I do not have children of my own. However, I have
>>>> in the last few years been encouraged by numerous individuals in
>>>> practically every facet of my life to consider the idea of going to
>>>> law school. Like Maura, I would be considered a non-traditional
>>>> student and I do not have any interest in working at some big NYC
>>>> law firm...my expectations are more reasonable. I am currently in
>>>> my 17th year of my current professional career and have a masters
>>>> degree I finished like 10 years ago. I'm required in my current
>>>> profession to get at least 6 credit hours every 5 years, which I
>>>> have done online...but that has been the extent of my recent experiences
> at the collegiate level. I definitely have an interest in pursuing law but
> the
>>>> idea of leaping into a completely new realm is definitely daunting. I
>>>> guess one of my nagging questions is.... can some of law school be
>>>> done while still working? Or does one need to plan on just doing
>>>> law school and putting work aside for those few years? Any advice
>>>> on this or anything else you might find helpful is welcome and
>>>> appreciated, either on this thread or privately.
>>>> Happy Holidays!Nicole
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Bill Spiry via BlindLaw <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> To: 'Blind Law Mailing List' <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: b.s.spiry <b.s.spiry at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Mon, Dec 24, 2018 5:46 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>
>>>> Greetings Maura.
>>>>
>>>> I can relate to your itch to go for your J.D. despite what some may
>>>> be telling you are bad odds for success. I took that plunge at the
>>>> age of 48 with an established 22 year professional career already
>>>> behind me, married, couple of teenage kids still at home, and plenty
>>>> of uncertainty. It was Scary as hell, and what my heart was telling
>>>> me to do. I paid a price for it and I do not regret my decision.
>>>>
>>>> So that is my first advice, take the time to listen carefully to
>>>> your heart on this. You need to do it because it's what is right
>>>> for you, not for anyone else. And if it is right for you and you
>>>> know it, ignore those who will try to convince you that you'd be
>>>> crazy to do it as someone without sight (including other blind lawyers).
>>>>
>>>> for the most part, I agree with the comments and advice from others
>>>> on this list regarding testing and strategy. So know this, yeah,
>>>> it's going to be damned hard and you're going to hit some walls that
>>>> will be tough to get around/over/through but you probably know if
>>>> you've got the metal for it in you. So go for it if you know it's
>>>> right for you and you believe you've got the metal to find your way
>>>> through some unique challenges. Follow your heart.
>>>>
>>>> My best wishes to you and yours for the holidays and the new year.
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bill Spiry
>>>> Attorney at Law
>>>> Spiry Law LLC
>>>> (541) 600-3301
>>>> Bill at SpiryLaw.com
>>>> Bill.spiry at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> "what's within you is stronger than what's in your way" - Erik
>>>> Weihenmayer
>>>>
>>>> Note that If you are not a client of Spiry Law LLC, this email does
>>>> not create an attorney-client relationship and should not be
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>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: BlindLaw <blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Maura
>>>> Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 7:42 AM
>>>> To: Blind Law Mailing List <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak <maurakutnyak at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>
>>>> One more thing, having sent this message from your iPhone, did you
>>>> use a separate keyboard or have you found the Braille input useful?
>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 9:27 AM, James Fetter via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> First of all, I agree with Paul. If this is your dream, go for it.
>>>>> Just
>>>> know that more than a sane amount of work, work, and work, awaits you.
>>>>> As to your questions:
>>>>> 1. Having taken both the GRE and LSAT, I can state with a high
>>>>> level of
>>>> confidence that the GRE does not present half the accommodations
>>>> barriers the LSAT does. The logic games section of the LSAT requires
>>>> either the drawing of diagrams or the use of Excel. There are no
>>>> accessible study aids that teach you how to use Excel to ace this
>>>> section. And at least when I took the LSAT, getting basic
>>>> accommodations from LSAC was like waging a war of attrition. So if
>>>> you don't mind being limited to the programs that accept the GRE, then
> do that and save yourself some pain and suffering.
>>>>> 2. Going to law school after grad school is an interesting
>>>>> transition. All
>>>> of a sudden, you're in a classroom with people ten years
>>>> younger-people who are generally used to studying for high-pressure
>>>> exams and who seem to have an inexhaustible amount of energy. Yet,
>>>> you will have advantages: the ability to think in different ways,
>>>> the ability to write both well and more quickly, etc. You will be
>>>> fine, as long as you don't get sucked into the grades/money dynamic
>>>> (I.e. the idea that the only reason you're there is to get top
>>>> grades so that you can land a job at a NYC law firm). Nothing wrong
>>>> with those goals, but based on your message, they don't seem to be your
> goals.
>>>>> 3. Being blind in law school is like being blind anywhere else.
>>>>> You'll
>>>> need the same auxiliary aids as you would need in grad school. The
>>>> only real difference I found is that, if you're on journal, it can
>>>> be interesting getting accommodations from 3L's (Third-year law
>>>> students) while you're a 2L staff editor. I had to provide a crash
>>>> course on the ADA to 3L's, who thought accommodations were a courtesy
> they could approve or deny at will.
>>>> But I got through it just fine and am now practicing.
>>>>> 4. Re: going through law school as a parent, I can't help much
>>>>> there other
>>>> than to advise finding other parents going through the same thing as
>>>> you are. Most of your fellow students will be in their early 20's
>>>> and still on Tinder. So find other older law students who took a
> "non-traditional" path.
>>>> Though my wife and I do not have kids, my best friends in law school
>>>> were other older students who took non-traditional paths. In fact,
>>>> these friendships, in addition to my wife, kept me sane through what
>>>> would have otherwise been a very frenetic three years.
>>>>> I hope some of this is helpful, and I wish you nothing but the best!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:45 AM, Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Thank you Dr. Harpur. While maybe not practical, your words ring
> true.
>>>> No one can answer some of my deepest questions other than me, in the
> moment.
>>>> Again, thank you so kindly for taking the time to write.
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak
>>>>>> 716-563-9882
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 8:10 AM, Paul Harpur via BlindLaw
>>>> <blindlaw at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> You never know if you can live your dream until you wake up and
>>>>>>> take the
>>>> plunge. Go for it!
>>>>>>> I am based in Australia but am also an International
>>>>>>> Distinguished
>>>> Fellow at BBI at Syracuse University. I will let others give more
>>>> practical advice, but my e-mail is here to encourage you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dr Paul Harpur
>>>>>>> BBus (HRm), LLB (Hons) LLM, PhD, solicitor of the High Court of
>>>>>>> Australia (non-practicing) Fulbright Future Scholar/International
>>>> Distinguished Fellow, Burton Blatt Institute, SU, New York.
>>>>>>> Senior Lecturer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TC Beirne School of Law
>>>>>>> The University of Queensland
>>>>>>> Brisbane Qld 4072 Australia
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> T +61 7 3365 8864 M +61 417 635 609 E p.harpur at law.uq.edu.au TCB
>>>>>>> Profile/Google Citation Page CRICOS
>>>>>>> code: 00025B
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Scientia ac Labore
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This email (including any attached files) is intended solely for
>>>>>>> the
>>>> addressee and may contain confidential information of The University
>>>> of Queensland. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that
>>>> any transmission, distribution, printing or photocopying of this
>>>> email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error,
>>>> please delete and notify me. Unless explicitly stated, the opinions
>>>> expressed in this email do not represent the official position of The
> University of Queensland.
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: BlindLaw [mailto:blindlaw-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak via BlindLaw
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2018 11:05 PM
>>>>>>> To: blindlaw at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> Cc: Maura Kutnyak <maurakutnyak at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: [blindlaw] Seeking guidance
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello blind law participants,
>>>>>>> I am writing with more than a little hesitation and an equal
>>>>>>> amount of
>>>> interest. If what follows would be better directed else where
>>>> please point the way.
>>>>>>> I am a blind graduate student in Buffalo NY. Under the
>>>>>>> influence of a
>>>> few converging forces, a slight interest in law school as a next
>>>> step has grown to a nagging and exciting unshakable desire. More
>>>> than a few people who have offered consultation as I explore this
>>>> option have pointed me to the collective knowledge of this email list.
>>>>>>> My questions range from broad ideas such as, How could I
>>>>>>> possibly make
>>>> my way through law school blind and a mother of three? To, what
>>>> kinds of supports will I need? Most immediate is the question of
>>>> which entrance test should I take? I recently learned that The
>>>> University at Buffalo law school started accepting the GRE in
>>>> addition to the LSAT. I did not have to take the GRE for the MPA
>>>> program in which I am currently studying. So, I am not sure which test
> is more friendly to the blind.
>>>>>>> I could go on and on.I will end soon. One additional question
>>>>>>> is, are
>>>> there any recent UB law graduates in this list? hearing from
>>>> someone who has spent time in that program may be a very helpful start.
>>>>>>> Thanks to anyone who took the time to read. I have so many more
>>>> questions but I do not want to clog anyones inbox Too much. Again,
>>>> if this line of inquiry would be best plumbed somewhere else don't
>>>> hesitate to redirect.
>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maura Kutnyak-Smalley
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> BlindLaw mailing list
>>>>>>> BlindLaw at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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