[BlindMath] What is your experience reading LaTeX source?
Doug and Molly Miron
mndmrn at hbci.com
Sat Jan 12 14:36:37 UTC 2019
Thanks. I do have a WinXP box which I bought so I could run an old but
accessible version of MatLab. Maybe I'll give it a try.---Doug
On 1/12/2019 4:18 AM, Aqil Sajjad via BlindMath wrote:
> Hi Doug,
>
> Unfortunately, WinTriangle only works in Windows XP because it was
> never updated. I still carry a Windows Xp computer in addition to a
> Windows 10 one in order to use it. Having to do this is a nuisance,
> but I still do it because the efficiency I gain by not having to read
> or edit LaTex directly all the time is huge.
>
>
> For me personally, the bottom line is to use tools that allow me to
> focus on the content of the equations and work efficiently. So I find
> this a totally worthwhile trade off without any doubt. Other people
> may see it differently. But I would say that if you're reading LaTex
> documents on a very regular basis, then chances are that you'll be
> glad if you give the WinTriangle system a try even at the cost of
> having to get Windows XP on your computer. If on the other hand you're
> reading other people's LaTex files very rarely, then it may not
> necessarily be a good trade off.
>
> In case you decide to still go ahead and give it a try, then I can
> walk you through the steps involved in making it work on Windows XP.
>
> On a different note, I have come to the conclusion that until Math
> Type based conversion tools develop the sophistication to handle a
> large variety of LaTex commands, we need to upgrade WinTriangle so
> that it can work in Windows 10. Yes, it's an old system that is
> supposed to have died a long time back with the arrival of new
> technology, but unfortunately, the new technology isn't there yet,
> notwithstanding all the hype. Basically, any solution that requires
> people to spend a lot of time reading through other people's LaTex
> code is a very flawed and inefficient approach, no matter how poplar
> it may be.
>
>
> Aqil
>
> On 1/11/2019 9:50 PM, Doug and Molly Miron via BlindMath wrote:
>> Good day,
>>
>>
>> I tried to install Wintriangle but got a notice that I needed a .net
>> framework, so I clicked on the button to get one. However, I
>> apparently didn't choose the right one because the wintriangle
>> installer still wouldn't run. Does anyone want to give me a
>> step-by-step procedure? I'm using Windows 10.
>>
>>
>> I'm a fairly recent learner and user of LaTeX. I use the simplest
>> form possible to write my equations and use the MathType converter to
>> give MathPlayer-readable equations. I've converted a couple of
>> source files for published papers that the author kindly provided,
>> but did this by deleting all the excess formatting which MathType
>> wouldn't convert anyway. I didn't find this too tedious an approach,
>> but that's because I didn't do it much.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Doug Miron
>>
>>
>> On 1/11/2019 2:02 PM, Aqil Sajjad via BlindMath wrote:
>>> Ok, I should have phrased that 'bottom line' sentence slightly
>>> differently. But the overall point is still fully valid. I am a
>>> research level blind physicist and read papers from arxiv all the
>>> time. And most of the time I am able to do this either with zero or
>>> minimal time wasted on reading or editing the original LaTex code.
>>> The reason: I choose to work with technology that allows me to do this.
>>>
>>> Yes, several blind mathematicians read LaTex code directly. But that
>>> hardly means it is not a very inefficient way to read math. There is
>>> a reason why sighted people generally read the compiled pdf instead
>>> of reading the LaTex source code directly. The difference is like
>>> going to a website and reading the html source code with all the
>>> formatting junk instead of reading the actual website on display.
>>> One can of course read the source code but one wouldn't normally do
>>> that as a first choice unless one really has to. And this isn't
>>> merely a matter of personal preference but has to do with the fact
>>> that if you have to read through all those formatting commands which
>>> aren't related to the content, then it's distracting and makes
>>> reading inefficient.
>>>
>>> Now, coming to the point about the inability of LaTex to MathML
>>> converters to cleanly produce good MathML without requiring one to
>>> edit the source code. I haven't worked with MathMl conversion
>>> because I haven't been able to get one working, honestly. I have
>>> however done some experimentation with LaTex to MathType convertors,
>>> and yes, the results are mixed. It's true that things don't always
>>> convert well to Math Type without having to edit the source code.
>>> But then this only means that these tools aren't quite there yet
>>> despite all the excessive hype around MathML and Math Type on these
>>> forums. It does not mean that reading LaTex directly should be the
>>> way to go.
>>>
>>> As I I wrote in the previous e-mail, I use an old tool called
>>> WinTriangle for reading LaTex documents because it allows conversion
>>> to a clutter-free format with much less work. Yes, I do have to edit
>>> the source code sometimes in order to make it convert correctly. But
>>> most of the time
>>> I am able to simply convert it to WinTriangle without having to open
>>> the LaTex source code at all. Apart from the arxiv, this also
>>> applies to documents obtained by scanning something and converting
>>> it to LaTex through infty reader. They mostly convert nicely to
>>> WinTriangle without one having to even open the LaTex source code.
>>> This allows me to focus on reading the real content without having
>>> to waste time reading through all the clutter in the LaTex code.
>>>
>>> So here is the revised bottom line: One doesn't and shouldn't have
>>> to spent a lot of time reading through the formatting mess in the
>>> LaTex source code in order to read math. Sighted people don't do it
>>> and we shouldn't have to do it either. If we're doing it, then we're
>>> using the wrong technology and lowering our efficiency.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/11/2019 8:55 AM, John G Heim via BlindMath wrote:
>>>> Yeah, I didn't see that in the original post but I write all my own
>>>> latex by hand. Every document I create for any reason, whether it
>>>> is for work or for one of the non-profits I am involved in, is
>>>> written in latex by hand. Then I convert it to pdf and send it out.
>>>>
>>>> I used to teach a mini-course in latex for grad students at the
>>>> Math Department at the University Of Wisconsin. We dropped it a
>>>> long time ago because grad students come in already knowing latex.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/11/19 6:48 AM, Łukasz Grabowski via BlindMath wrote:
>>>>> The bottom line cited below is not quite true:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bottom line: with several available alternatives, no one should have
>>>>> to read LaTex source code directly unless they really want to torture
>>>>> themselves."
>>>>>
>>>>> I know it for a fact that blind professional mathematicians read
>>>>> latex
>>>>> directly. If you don't believe, I suggest going to arxiv.org,
>>>>> downloading latex source for some new mathematical article and trying
>>>>> to convert it to mathml.
>>>>>
>>>>> The effect likely will be that no matter what software you use you
>>>>> will
>>>>> have to spend first a substantial amount of time editing the
>>>>> source code
>>>>> just to make your software parse the source. And even if you do
>>>>> succeed
>>>>> (which is FAR from given as not all latex pakcages will be
>>>>> implemented
>>>>> in your conversion software)) afterwards you will also surely need to
>>>>> consult latex source anyway while reading mathml.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having said that, this is about professional cutting edge
>>>>> mathematical
>>>>> research. For the purpose of high school students or early university
>>>>> (basic calculus, statistics, etc.), there is probably indeed no need,
>>>>> as there are good quality mathml materials available.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Lukasz
>>>>>
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>>>>
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