[BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
Sina Bahram
sina at sinabahram.com
Fri Sep 13 23:00:12 UTC 2019
I know this list is not meant to solve people's accommodations problems, but
there were a hell of a lot of people looking out for me when I was in this
boat, and so, begging the list's forgiveness, but this is important, and
paying it forward is the only way we improve things for everyone, so I'd
like to delve into this a bit.
Oh wow, that changes things a bit, at least as far as I'm concerned. I claim
he needs Braille, and yesterday. Differential equations, ok, not ideal, but
I did some trivial ones in my head back in undergrad, and even then I had
braille for scratch, but linear algebra is just highly improbable to have
success at without braille. We're talking 5x5 matrices with operations being
done on them, that's 25 numbers at a time ... just no. The working memory
flushes from a single operation on that kind of matrix is ridiculous. It
would take him an order of magnitude longer to solve a problem using
single-line display and speech than a sighted counterpart, or at least,
*shrug*, that's been my experience.
How is he even doing simple things like just checking if a matrix is in row
echelon form? That's just a finger drag in Braille. I'm the most
tech-positive person I know, but there are fundamental physical advantages
to Braille when it comes to matrices, and I'm sorry, we haven't solved those
problems as computer scientists yet.
Anyways, I wish to be careful not to project solutions that worked for me
onto him, but just examining this from first principles makes me concerned
about a purely digital solution. Do let me know if I've missed something
earlier in the thread and he does have access to a Braille book?
Take care,
Sina
President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
Phone: 919-345-3832
https://www.PAC.bz
Twitter: @SinaBahram
Personal Website: https://www.sinabahram.com
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via
BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 5:42 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
The student is in differential equations and linear algebra courses this
semester. Yes, there are matrices. Lots and lots of matrices. He needs
Windows + NVDA + Mathplayer and MathML files. He is not going to get the
same functionality on the Mac, even with a bunch of crazy single-step
workarounds.
-Susan
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sina Bahram via
BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 3:36 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sina Bahram <sina at sinabahram.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
Ed brings up a great additional solution. On IOS devices, the Math
exploration support isn't bad. I wouldn't say that it is "great", especially
for basically anything involving matrices, step-wise functions, complex
integrals, nested series, calculus-based statistics past the intro stuff,
etc., but this all may be out of scope for your student, and therefore does
not matter.
Note, much like Ed, I haven't played with that in a little bit, so I can't
recall whether or not VO allows for both Nemeth and UEB output, for example,
especially on the math side, which may matter depending on how your student
was taught mathematics in Braille, if at all, so something else to keep in
mind.
I will point out though, and with tons of bias, that I still feel
MathPlayer+NVDA is absolutely the most fully-featured way of exploring
mathematics in existence. The bias part comes from the fact that I spent 3
to 4+ years helping develop those techniques with Neil Soiffer (who, as far
as I'm concerned is the most under-recognized hero of access to mathematics
in our community), but the factual part comes from, don't bother with what I
think and feel free to investigate on your own and read ETS's associated
papers, etc.
Personal story: I will never, ever, forget the feeling of just pure awe when
I was able to browse Euler's equations, Einstein's special relativity
formulas, the Riemann Zeta function, etc. just by doing some Google searches
across Wikipedia, and that was also in Nemeth under my fingertips ... that
was a big deal. I would have absolutely done anything for that in high
school/undergrad. Pondering that too much makes me sound old, though, haha
e.g. kids have it so good these days. The point is that, they don't. There
are still huge disparities in equitable access to the most basic tenants of
mathematics education, but it is absolutely getting better, and noticeably
so, which is amazing and awesome.
Take care,
Sina
President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
Phone: 919-345-3832
https://secure-web.cisco.com/19n1e2Jbkz42iDH-5Pdoceh13su44yrRxguReza8A2BJrnx
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PQjDsT-wYyKTaOe5NAhV9b_kNzWjCjMMf_iMMbX7rs8g/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.PAC.bz
Twitter: @SinaBahram
Personal Website:
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-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ed Summers via
BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 5:11 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
Please verify your markup is correct. I just tested equations on this page
using VO + Safari on my iPhone. Works great. My sighted colleague confirmed
full screen display of equations and terms.
https://support.freedomscientific.com/content/html/jawshq/MathML-Samples.htm
l
Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via
BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 4:41 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
EXTERNAL
Yes, I've tried it with Safari and Voiceover. I get an javascript error
just opening the file in Safari.
I appreciate everyone's advice and help! I am still learning so many
things.
-Susan
-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Ed Summers via
BlindMath
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 2:38 PM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Ed Summers <Ed.Summers at sas.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
Sina, well said. I agree 100%.
Susan, have you tried viewing your MathML in Safari on iOS using VoiceOver?
I haven't tested it in some time. However, in the past it had decent
braille/speech support and it also displays the equation, individual terms,
etc full screen. It's a really nice feature for users with low vision.
The video in this blog post shows how to access MathML in an iBook. However,
the behavior is the same in Safari.
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web
.cisco.com%2F1pfRZpLyxwF0kR3bPQ2ndLOypWMTbxeHH6C7vbxk19sGe0SIABYm2T1gWuUnGF-
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TG2Upt4bcaNH24inaBiKGhJrxP1Q%2Fhttps%253A%252F%252Fhttp://secure-web.cisco.c
om/1bw1vkua2jlaga0_QV-IuO6yz0bodC4m9lmNpZjhCZ9YzoNgLnii7A8NKZhJ71A6LlvkeSjXX
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Mrqp2mc-BUQnv2vwcmo2rl3dxXviCzZTRFe8hPdksnVl2jIUY86OWLgEpvupV_R5vp9YM73LfvXN
VHEGLKxlcD1fWjCICA/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.perkinselearning.org%
252Ftechnology%252Fblog%252Fhow-read-math-expressions-voiceover-ios-device&a
mp;data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d7388af0e1%7C
b1c14d5c362545b3a4309552373a0c2f%7C0%7C0%7C637040041710303910&sdata=xNs9
u4aUi94UqoSc3ZJ1GytTKMzedBsGVeFifM78IKE%3D&reserved=0
Hope that helps,
Ed
p.s. If he's low vision and he refuses to use a screen reader, I would be
willing to bet his reading rate is very slow. I'm on a mission to help all
students with VIB increase their reading rate to ~600 words per minute.
Please refer him to my blog series on this topic:
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure-web
.cisco.com%2F1cSF4MiqJn2-ha0xenuWeZJslZ_rxhwN5F_OgCT4hre2rIqlkNKViddHgqIerU8
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part-1&data=02%7C01%7Ced.summers%40sas.com%7C92f4686e1a154c2afff608d7388
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-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Sina Bahram via
BlindMath
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 12:46 PM
To: 'Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics'
<blindmath at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Sina Bahram <sina at sinabahram.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
EXTERNAL
Susan,
It's not fair, but sometimes we need to use the right tool for the job.
Currently, a Mac is simply the wrong tool for reading and exploring
mathematics. Your student needs to understand this. Is the resistance from a
lack of understanding, a resistance to change, or something else? They may
be asked to learn different platforms in an eventual job as well, so they
should start now when they arguably have more free-time and resources to
help them, such as yourself.
They can do their email, games, and whatever else they like on their Mac,
but Windows provides you NVDA, and NVDA+MathPlayer gets you excellent speech
and Braille for the mathematics encoded as you have described.
They don't even need to change their hardware, necessarily, as they could
run Windows inside of a VM on their Mac, thereby taking advantage of both
worlds.
If they are unwilling to change, then I wish you both luck, and know that
you can't always convince folks to use the right solution, even when you try
all sorts of rational and emotional arguments. Try not to take that too
hard, as it's out of your control.
Thanks for what you do, by the way, it makes a huge impact in people's
lives.
Take care,
Sina
President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
Phone: 919-345-3832
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.PAC.bz
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Twitter: @SinaBahram
Personal Website:
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-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces at nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via
BlindMath
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 12:36 PM
To: blindmath at nfbnet.org
Cc: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
Subject: [BlindMath] Low vision student wanting to hear math on a Mac
I've been on this list for several years and read much of what you post, and
have learned a lot. I'm an alternate format provider for students at the
University of Colorado, and I have a new problem and don't know how to help
my student.
He is a math and computer science major with low vision and refuses to move
to a Windows machine or to use a screen reader. He has familiarity with
Voiceover on his Mac. He has some vision and has gotten through math in the
past with enlargements, but he's reached a point in his college career where
this is just not going to be enough.
I'm creating math-enabled files, that can be read easily on a Windows
machine, but I'm not having any luck getting this to work on a Mac. I've
tried epub3, which works but doesn't read all the characters in an equation.
I've tried just using a mathml file (I get a javascript error when I try to
open it in Safari and then it opens the file but all the math is missing),
I've tried straight-up word files with Mathtype. Nothing is working. I
can't seem to adjust the verbosity settings on voiceover to anything but
"all" or "some" but no fine tuning. So while it reads the math it puts in a
lot of extra stuff if I am using the "all" setting, and doesn't read the
basics (like parenthesis) if I set it to "some." I am creating all files in
Word with Mathtype on a PC.
Any suggestions for me and my student?
Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services University
of Colorado Boulder
303-735-4836
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