[Mn-abs] Freedom for the Blind
David Andrews
dandrews at visi.com
Sat Jan 8 21:57:08 UTC 2011
It is practice, confidence, skills, asking questions etc. There
isn't one simple answer. I would ask questions, use what I already
knew, possibly walk places with people, ask people, find out what I
could in advance etc. There isn't just one answer, a little of this,
a little of that etc.
Dave
At 06:50 AM 1/7/2011, you wrote:
>How does one learn a new environment--especially a city or a
>campus--without formal mobility training? This is one of the point's
>that intrigued me about the book. Is it simply a matter of
>practice, or are there specific things one does?
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com
>>To: Minnesota Association of Blind Students List
><mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>>Date sent: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 00:16:33 -0600 (CST)
>>Subject: Re: [Mn-abs] Freedom for the Blind
>
>>I think anyone can benefit from a training center, but whether it
>>should trump other priorities or goals is a difficult question.
>I
>>deferred my training until after college because I got a
>competitive
>>scholarship right out of high school and wasn't able to take a
>break
>>between high school and college without losing it. I often
>struggled
>>with the question of whether I should take time off from college
>to
>>attend the center or wait until after graduation. In the end I
>waited
>>until after graduation and I was fine, but I also think the
>training I
>>got enhanced my later experience with going to grad school in a
>new
>>state, learning a new campus without formal mobility training,
>etc. If
>>you feel you have time in your life to attend a center for even a
>few
>>months I'd say go for it, but if right now you have other
>priorities
>>and you feel good about your skills, I'd agree that just making a
>>point of practicing and learning new things on your own is a
>good,
>>solid plan.
>
>>Arielle
>
>>On 1/6/11, Jordan Richardson <lilrichie411 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Kelby,
>
>>>It's great that you were raised in the mainstream and have a
>large skill
>>>set. You are also very intelligent and, you say yourself, that
>>>self-advocacy is one of your strong suits. I believe that,
>given these
>>>circumstances, you may very well not need a trainning center.
>What you need
>>>is to simply use those skills in the real world, and college is
>a great
>>>opportunity to do this. I, personally, believe that a program
>at a
>>>trainning center is mostly for those who haven't had some of the
>experiences
>>>you and I, for example have had growing up. If what you are
>looking to do
>>>is pollish your skills, what you need is to put those skills to
>use at home,
>>>at college, and generally at life. That is not to say that
>trainning is not
>>>an option, because some people really need it, but you have to
>ask yourself,
>>>"do I need 'rehabilitation'?" If you truly look back and say "I
>was
>>>'habilitated' as a child," you may not necesarily need a
>trainning program.
>>>All in all, it is a personal choice that you have to make
>yourself, however,
>>>that is not to say you can't ask for advice.
>
>>>Just my two cents,
>>>Jordan
>>>mabs president
>
>>>On 6 January 2011 21:32, Kelby Carlson
><kelbycarlson at usfamily.net> wrote:
>
>>>>That's good to know. I'm already applying to colleges and
>auditioning for
>>>>music scholarships, so I'm not sure I'll attend a training
>center. I
>>>>simply
>>>>don't know when I thd have the time, and I'm not convinced I
>have the
>>>>need.
>>>> (I'm not saying I'm all that special, just that I was raised
>very
>>>>mainstream in a normal family and have a big skill-set.)
>
>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com
>>>>>To: "Minnesota Association of Blind Students List"
>
>>>><mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>
>>>>>Date sent: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 21:13:02 -0600 (CST)
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Mn-abs] Freedom for the Blind
>
>
>>>>Kelby,
>
>
>>>>If you got a cane when you were one year old, you definitely
>
>>>>benefited from the work we did in the 1970's and 1980's
>
>>>>>to get canes into the hands of younger kids.
>
>
>>>>Perhaps others can answer this question better than I, but I
>
>>>>would say that most blind pdople spend some time in a
>
>>>>>training center after high school. Some of the time would be
>
>>>>used to brush up and solidify the skills you already have,
>
>>>>>and if you already have good skills in some areas, more time can
>
>>>>be spent on areas where more work would be
>
>>>>>helpful. This is the time in your life when you have the most
>
>>>>flexibility to do something like this. I don't know your
>
>>>>>background but others here know you better and might be able to
>
>>>>give you a more personalized answer.
>
>>>>Best regards,
>
>
>>>>Steve Jacobson
>
>
>>>>On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:23:44 -0600 (CST), Kelby Carlson wrote:
>
>
>>>> Steve,
>
>
>>>> Just to clarify. I received a cane when I was only one year
>old,
>>>>>>and have been using one all of my life. Using the cane itself
>is
>>>>>>very natural. I simply need to become more accustomed to
>walking
>>>>>>by myself, which I have done but would like to do more.
>
>
>>>> I really think I'm getting your position on pushing for change.
>>>>>>Working in groups myself, I know how essential working in that
>>>>>>kind of a frame of mind is.
>
>
>>>> Here's a question I'd like to pose to the list, though I don't
>>>>>>know if the answers will change my mind. It's been suggested to
>>>>>>me that I should attend a training center for a several month
>>>>>>period, but I'm really not sure that's necessary at this point.
>>>>>>Yes, there are areas in my life that need to be more
>independent.
>>>>>>I suspect that will happen when I begin college, as I am
>>>>>>naturally an advocate for myself and usually just require a
>nudge
>>>>>>if that. I've been trained in mobility and technology and am
>>>>>>proficient. My daily living skills could perhaps be imprved,
>but
>>>>>>I believe the same could be said of most high school students.
>>>>>>What do you guys think?
>
>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com
>>>>>>>To: "Minnesota Association of Blind Students List"
>
>>>>>><mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>
>>>>>>>Date sent: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:37:52 -0600 (CST)
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Mn-abs] Freedom for the Blind
>
>
>>>> Keldy,
>
>
>>>> While I think that we have learned to try to explain our
>
>>>>>>positions more rather than just lay them out, I don't think that
>>>>>>we have ever been as inflexible as
>
>>>>>>>some made us out to be. Often, I have heard it explained that
>
>>>>>>blind people come to the Federation and are then all taught to
>>>>>>jump to the beat of a single
>
>>>>>>>drum. What I don't think some have understood is that most of
>us
>
>>>>>>have become a part of the NFB because we found something there
>>>>>>that reinforced what
>
>>>>>>>we already thought. After joining, I certainly learned things
>
>>>>>>that changed my mind on some issues, but I also worked within
>the
>>>>>>organization to change other
>
>>>>>>>minds as well. I used a folding cane for a good while into my
>
>>>>>>membership in the NFB, and there were those who told me I should
>>>>>>use a straight cane. At
>
>>>>>>>that point, their approach didn't work for me because partly
>they
>
>>>>>>never explained why, and partly because nobody was going to tell
>>>>>>me what to do even
>
>>>>>>>though I was a committed member. <smile> It took standing in
>
>>>>>>the middle of Hennepin with that little piece of pipe to change
>>>>>>my mind. Some have
>
>>>>>>>believed that we never debate. They have not been at some of
>our
>
>>>>>>conventions or read some of our e-mail lists. However, we try
>>>>>>hard to pull together
>
>>>>>>>once a decision is made. I will support an issue in terms of
>
>>>>>>working for the NFB even if I voted against it knowing that
>means
>>>>>>others who may not support
>
>>>>>>>an issue of mine will do the same when the vote goes my way.
>
>>>>>>Some see that as inflexibility. I think, though, that you will
>>>>>>find that each of us has taken a
>
>>>>>>>different path to get to where we are now, and that our reasons
>
>>>>>>for being here include getting encouragement ourselves, having a
>>>>>>place to go with our
>
>>>>>>>questions, and to gry to make life better for those blind people
>
>>>>>>who come after us.
>
>
>>>> I did not know that "sighted guide" is now being taught to be
>
>>>>>>used in conjunction with the cane. When I learned it, one was
>>>>>>specifically told to remain a
>
>>>>>>>step or so behind the person whose arm one had to give oneself
>
>>>>>>warning that a step up or down was coming. One would feel the
>>>>>>elbow rise or fall giving
>
>>>>>>>one a little time to react. I am glad to see that has
>apparently
>
>>>>>>changed, and who knows, we may have affected that on some level.
>>>>>>During my lifetime, I
>
>>>>>>>can remember when we were considered to be crazy to think that
>
>>>>>>the cane should be given to elementary students. Some even felt
>>>>>>that middleschool or
>
>>>>>>>junior was too soon for the cane. Stil, it has become pretty
>
>>>>>>mainstream to introduce kids to canes when they are young, now.
>>>>>>Some issues such as getting
>
>>>>>>>canes to kids we advocated for a long time and we felt it was
>
>>>>>>important enough to push. Some could have seen that as
>>>>>>inflexible, but it was the only way to
>
>>>>>>>get thinking to change.
>
>
>>>> You asked about walking less using sighted guide. What I have
>
>>>>>>found over time is that I am more aware of my surroundings when
>I
>>>>>>am not walking sighted
>
>>>>>>>guide. If someone is showing me around a college campus, for
>
>>>>>>example, I will retain a lot more if I am walking with the
>person
>>>>>>but walking independently.
>
>>>>>>>That may not be true for everyone, but it is for me. Using a
>
>>>>>>cane and refining those skills requires some instruction as you
>>>>>>have already had, but practice is
>
>>>>>>>what will make using a cane second nature for you. The more you
>
>>>>>>use it, the more natural it will all feel. There are going to
>be
>>>>>>times when it is simply more
>
>>>>>>>practical to walk sighted guide with someone, but what I always
>
>>>>>>wanted to shoot for was knowing that I was choosing to walk with
>>>>>>someone rather than
>
>>>>>>>feeling I couldn't do it any other way. In my case, I had to
>
>>>>>>force myself to walk alone more, especially in the beginning, so
>>>>>>that I could build my confidence
>
>>>>>>>as a traveler and have the use of a cane feel natural. It
>didn't
>
>>>>>>mean that I never took an arm, but it was something I tried to
>>>>>>keep in the forefront of my mind.
>
>>>>>>>If I found that it was a pattern to walk with someone when I
>went
>
>>>>>>to a certain place, I would try to find a reason to do it alone
>>>>>>sometime or to at least walk
>
>>>>>>>separately so that I would know I could do it.
>
>
>>>> In short, I think that the picture sometimes painted of NFB
>
>>>>>>members has been wrong, but there is also no doubt that we have
>>>>>>worked hard to change some
>
>>>>>>>things and change isn't always easy for some to accept. I hope
>
>>>>>>you keep asking questions here. It is good for all of us.
>
>
>>>> Best regards,
>
>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>
>
>>>> On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:04:29 -0600 (CST), Kelby Carlson wrote:
>
>
>>>> Steve,
>
>
>>>> Thank you so much for your thoughtful, well-considered and
>>>>>>>>articulate response to my questions. I'll be candid here. I've
>>>>>>>>been, for a long while, somewhat innoculated against the NFB
>>>>>>>>because of what some perceive to be their faults. (One of which
>>>>>>>>is lack of compromise and inflexibility.) It is obvious from
>>>>>>>>talking to people on this list and from beginning to read NFB
>>>>>>>>literature, that this is most definitely not the case. My
>>>>>>>>mobility training has been very good. Humorously enough, when I
>>>>>>>>was trained to use sighted guide as a child I have always been
>>>>>>>>trained to use my cane while taking someone's arm I did not
>>>>>>>>even realize, until you said something, that blind people would
>>>>>>>>use sighted guide without the use of their cane. However, I
>have
>>>>>>>>begun to believe that I must decrease my use of sighted guide.
>I
>>>>>>>>want to be as independent a traveler as I can, and I believe
>>>>>>>>learning to follow independently is an important skill. I
>>>>>>>>attended the Circle of Life Science Camp in 2005, and gained
>>>>>>>>knowledge of doing this. Do you think beginning to practice
>this
>>>>>>>>more would be a good idea?
>
>
>>>> I actually decided to request a white cane this morning, and
>I'm
>>>>>>>>very excited to begin experimenting with it. I also applied for
>>>>>>>>a mentor on NFB link so I easily ask questions like this and
>>>>>>>>start to network. It's rather amazing how empowering taking
>>>>>>>>these simple steps can feel.
>
>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com
>>>>>>>>>To: "Minnesota Association of Blind Students List"
>
>>>>>>>><mn-abs at nfbnet.org
>
>>>>>>>>>Date sent: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:41:14 -0600 (CST)
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Mn-abs] Freedom for the Blind
>
>
>>>> Keldy,
>
>
>>>> To some degree, whether you use a folding cane or straight
>cane,
>
>>>>>>>>and even the length you use, is a personal preference. If you
>>>>>>>>have already given some
>
>>>>>>>>>thought, as you indicate, as to whether using a folding cane
>
>>>>>>>>hides your blindness, I think you are off to a good start.
>
>
>>>> I remember clearly the day I decided I was going to no longer
>use
>
>>>>>>>>a folding cane as my main cane. It was winter, and I was
>>>>>>>>crossing Hennepin Avenue at
>
>>>>>>>>>Seventh Street in downtown Minneapolis. I even remember I was
>on
>
>>>>>>>>the south side of Seventh walking west. About half way across
>>>>>>>>Hennepin, my cane
>
>>>>>>>>>suddenly became noticeably lighter. A half second later, I
>heard
>
>>>>>>>>the clattering and rolling of small pipes on the surface of
>>>>>>>>Hennepin. It took a second for me
>
>>>>>>>>>to put the two observations together that my folding cane had
>
>>>>>>>>broken, and what I was hearing were the sections of my folding
>>>>>>>>cane hitting the street and
>
>>>>>>>>>rolling away from me. There I was, standing in the middle of
>
>>>>>>>>Hennepin Avenue during rush hour with a 12-inch piece of pipe in
>>>>>>>>my hand. Needless to say, I
>
>>>>>>>>>did get across the street, and some others assisted me in
>
>>>>>>>>tracking down the sections of my cane that I hadn't found
>myself.
>>>>>>>>I managed to temporarily get my
>
>>>>>>>>>cane to stay together until I got back to my college dorm.
>
>
>>>> Even with this experience, though, I have used a folding cane
>on
>
>>>>>>>>several occasions since. Even the telescoping canes, which
>would
>>>>>>>>not have likely
>
>>>>>>>>>broken as did the one I described above, are much more likely to
>
>>>>>>>>be broken when people trip over them because the section nearest
>>>>>>>>the ground is thinner.
>
>>>>>>>>>This has happened to me on a number of occasions. Still, I do
>
>>>>>>>>keep a telescoping cane as a backup when I travel.
>
>
>>>> Dave Andrews has described how to get a cane into and out of a
>
>>>>>>>>car, and he has mentioned placing it between the seat and the
>>>>>>>>window on an airplane.
>
>>>>>>>>>The fact is that the airlines probably would prefer it if we
>
>>>>>>>>would all use folding canes, but the regulations do permit canes
>>>>>>>>to be placed between the seat and
>
>>>>>>>>>the window if it can be made to lay next to the body of the
>plane
>
>>>>>>>>without sticking up. There is a bit of a trick to doing this,
>>>>>>>>too, but one masters it fairly
>
>>>>>>>>>quickly. I find if I get my cane situated right away that the
>
>>>>>>>>airline very rarely asks me about it. One compromise I make is
>>>>>>>>that if I can't get a window seat, I
>
>>>>>>>>>will still place my cane along the window but will use a folding
>
>>>>>>>>cane during the flight so I don't have to disturb the passenger
>>>>>>>>sitting by the window. The
>
>>>>>>>>>airlines have to live by regulations, too, so one should not
>feel
>
>>>>>>>>apologetic about using a straight cane as long as one knows what
>>>>>>>>to do with it. What airlines
>
>>>>>>>>>do not understand is that the time a blind person is on a plane
>
>>>>>>>>when traveling independently is generally a small part of our
>>>>>>>>total travel experience. Traveling
>
>>>>>>>>>to the airport, through security and to the gate and then doing
>
>>>>>>>>the same thing at the other end requires that we have a
>>>>>>>>comfortable and reliable way to
>
>>>>>>>>>travel.
>
>
>>>> The other reason I like to have a backup cane when I travel is
>
>>>>>>>>that there have been occasions when my straight cane has been
>>>>>>>>dammaged by elevator
>
>>>>>>>>>doors and such. There are somethings that no cane will survive.
>
>
>>>> While talking about traveling, I'd like to make a comment
>about
>
>>>>>>>>traveling with other people. You mentioned in another note that
>>>>>>>>you are traveling with your
>
>>>>>>>>>mother, for example. This can be another area where each of us
>
>>>>>>>>has to seek our own solutions. I have traveled with blind
>>>>>>>>persons who always walk by
>
>>>>>>>>>themselves, who can follow independently and have no problem
>with
>
>>>>>>>>that at all. Particularly in an airport, one often finds
>>>>>>>>themselves in the position where
>
>>>>>>>>>they have the cane in one hand and their luggage in the other.
>
>>>>>>>>Still, I personally find it somewhat difficult to travel and
>talk
>>>>>>>>to someone else at the same
>
>>>>>>>>>time. For the record, I can usually walk and chew gum. <smile
>
>>>>>>>>I will often take the arm of the person I am traveling with,
>even
>>>>>>>>if they are as blind as I am,
>
>>>>>>>>>simply because it is easier for me to carry on a conversation
>
>>>>>>>>without having to think about where they are. However, when I
>>>>>>>>take the arm of another
>
>>>>>>>>>person, I do not follow the "Sighted guide" process of walking a
>
>>>>>>>>step behind them. Rather, I continue using my cane taking
>>>>>>>>responsibility for my own
>
>>>>>>>>>protection, regardless of whether the other person is blind or
>
>>>>>>>>sighted. If I am walking with someone and I trip on a curb, it
>>>>>>>>should be my fault and not theirs.
>
>>>>>>>>>Particularly with parents who tend to feel responsible for their
>
>>>>>>>>kids, and I say this not just as a blind person but also as a
>>>>>>>>parent, using a cane while walking
>
>>>>>>>>>with a parent can be a good compromise. I have also followed
>
>>>>>>>>others in an airport before getting rid of my bag by placing my
>>>>>>>>cane on the bag of the person
>
>>>>>>>>>walking in front of me. While this does not give me as much
>
>>>>>>>>information about what is in front of me, generally following
>>>>>>>>another person with a bag
>
>>>>>>>>>guarantees that my path is clear. This can be helpful when an
>
>>>>>>>>area is carpeted, reducing ones chance of hearing the other
>>>>>>>>person walk. Of course, if you
>
>>>>>>>>>are the person in the lead, this is not a concern at all, and
>
>>>>>>>>often that will be the case.
>
>
>>>> As I have gotten older and my hearing less keen, I have
>gradually
>
>>>>>>>>used longer canes to give me more warning of objects in front of
>>>>>>>>me. I resisted doing this
>
>>>>>>>>>for many years because of the inconvenience of knowing what to
>do
>
>>>>>>>>with the cane when it is not in use. Mostly, I have found that
>>>>>>>>it just isn't the problem
>
>>>>>>>>>that I thought it would be. A responsible blind person will try
>
>>>>>>>>to be aware of whether one's cane is sticking out in an aisle at
>>>>>>>>a restaurant for example. We all
>
>>>>>>>>>make the occasional mistake along those lines, but I don't think
>
>>>>>>>>that my use of a straight cane gives me license to inconvenience
>>>>>>>>or endanger someone
>
>>>>>>>>>else. With a little care, this doesn't have to happen. There
>
>>>>>>>>may still be times when you may find a folding cane to be
>useful.
>>>>>>>>For example, some folding
>
>>>>>>>>>bleachers such as you find in a gym can make dealing with a
>
>>>>>>>>straight cane more of a challenge. However, I cannot honestly
>>>>>>>>remember the last time I really
>
>>>>>>>>>felt that I should have used a folding cane. The times when I
>
>>>>>>>>really want to fold one up just don't happen very often, and as
>>>>>>>>you can see, I've been stung
>
>>>>>>>>>by using a folding cane just often enough to not want to take
>the
>
>>>>>>>>chance.
>
>
>>>> This is really great that you have brought this up on the
>list.
>
>>>>>>>>While I have a strong belief that my choices are right for me,
>my
>>>>>>>>hope here is only that you take
>
>>>>>>>>>my experiences into account as you chart your course. I believe
>
>>>>>>>>our ability to travel independently as blind people is one of
>the
>>>>>>>>most important skills in our
>
>>>>>>>>>success, and having a reliable way to do it is very important,
>
>>>>>>>>whatever that is. I view the occasional inconvenience of
>dealing
>>>>>>>>with a straight cane as being
>
>>>>>>>>>less of a problem than what many people deal with who have
>
>>>>>>>>contact lenses, for example. You learn to deal with the
>>>>>>>>occasional inconvenience in order to
>
>>>>>>>>>have a reliable tool to use to travel.
>
>
>>>> Best regards,
>
>
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>
>
>>>> On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 17:56:12 -0600 (CST), Kelby Carlson
>
>>>>>>>>wrote:
>
>
>>>> I was wondering if anyone else on this list has read Freedom
>for
>>>>>>>>>>the Blind by James Omvig. I am reading it now, and find much of
>>>>>>>>>>what it says very good; he articulates many things I have
>>>>>>>>>>believed my entire life and values my parents raised me with.
>
>
>>>> I'm almost to the section on the long white cane, and I have
>>>>>>>>>>wondered about this for some time. I understand the emotional
>>>>>>>>>>power of using a long cane and the statement it makes, but it
>>>>>>>>>>seems less than necessary from a pragmatic standpoint. I prefer
>>>>>>>>>>to have a cane that is able to fold not because I want to hide
>my
>>>>>>>>>>blindness, but simply for convenience. I'm rather tall, so
>>>>>>>>>>having a long cane that can't fold would make it very difficult
>>>>>>>>>>to travel in cars, at least I'm assuming so. (I can't imagine
>>>>>>>>>>the fits airlines could have over this.) Does anyone have
>>>>>>>>>>experience with this? I'm trying to explore options right now.
>I
>>>>>>>>>>want to get more involved with the larger blind community and
>I'm
>>>>>>>>>>fast approaching college. Any discussion on this would be
>>>>>>>>>>awesome.
>
>
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>>>>>>>>>for Mn-abs:
>
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>
>>>>>>>>>obson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>_______________________________________________
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>
>
>>>--
>>>Jordan Richardson
>>>President, Minnesota Association of Blind Students
>>>lilrichie411 at gmail.com
>>>"It is very important to generate a good attitude, a good heart,
>as much as
>>>possible. From this, happiness in both the short term and the
>long term for
>>>both yourself and others will come."
>>>--Dalai Lama
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