[nabs-l] studying abroad advise

Sun Apr 26 01:59:57 UTC 2009

One more thing:

If you're going on a relatively short group trip abroad, where
everyone in the group is going to the same places, staying in the same
hotels, etc. then it's not a problem to just stick with members of the
group, even if they're not close friends.

I went on a three-week trip to eastern Europe with some students from
my scholarship class whom I knew vaguely but not real well. Since I
didn't speak the language and wasn't a very confident traveler at the
time I walked around with other students in the group (or we'd break
up into small groups). I went with different people at different times
although after a while I did establish a regular group of sorts that I
spent most of my time with. Even though these people weren't close
friends it wasn't like I was a burden to them since they were just
going places they would go anyway and I was just following them. And
it was a great way to make friends!

So if you want to have a safer experience, agreeing to walk around
with at least one other person (even if it's not always the same
person) is a compromise. Again, there's no reason to bring someone
along just for that purpose.

Arielle

On 4/26/09, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Lora and all,
>
> Lora, I think you're right. What I meant was postponing the Europe
> trip until next year in order to go to a center and get strong
> blindness skills in the meantime. I feel it's much better to wait and
> be able to do the trip independently rather than going now and not
> being able to participate in the same way as the sighted students.
>
> As for "liability", I don't know the specific legalities, but denying
> a student access to study abroad on account of blindness is, at best,
> questionable under the ADA. They might argue that they're allowing you
> to go on the trip as long as you use what they deem to be a reasonable
> accommodation (the companion/guide), but remember also that under the
> ADA you have the right to refuse a specific accommodation.
>
> This is a kind of situation when getting a local or state NFB officer
> involved might be very helpful.
>
> Arielle
>
> On 4/26/09, Lora <blindhistory at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Arielle
>> I think that Priscilla doesn't have the time to go to a center since she
>> said that time was running out (please correct me of I am wrong). I
>> totally
>> agree that you should be able to go on this trip by yourself without a
>> sighted person right next to you all of the time.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Arielle Silverman
>> <arielle71 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> Priscilla, I am not sure about the details of your proposed trip, like
>>> how long you're planning to stay and whether it's a school-sponsored
>>> group trip where a bunch of people go together or simply an exchange
>>> program where you take classes at European universities as an
>>> international student. I will, however, give you advice assuming it's
>>> the most "risky" situation--a prolonged stay in Europe without being
>>> part of a school group.
>>>
>>> I studied in Australia under this type of program for four months
>>> during the spring of 2007. There I took classes at the University of
>>> Melbourne, participated in sightseeing and other tourist events, and
>>> also lived in a residential college (dorm), and I didn't have a guide.
>>> In fact, I didn't know a single person in the whole country and only
>>> had had brief email contact with the Australian program coordinator. I
>>> got a few mobility lessons from a staff member at the local guide dog
>>> school to learn my way around the campus and from the dorm to the
>>> nearest tram stop, and I also got electronic copies of my course
>>> materials from the disability services office in Melbourne. Other than
>>> that I was on my own.
>>>
>>> I’m telling you this not to make myself sound like an amazing blind
>>> person, because I’m not. On the contrary, my cane skills at that time
>>> were far from exemplary. The fact is that I’m one of several blind
>>> students who have traveled abroad without hired companions—including
>>> students who went to places where English wasn’t the native language.
>>> (For example, Kate Mendez from New York State went to Japan). Nor will
>>> I deny the fact that I was scared out of my mind before I went. But,
>>> now that I’m back safe and sound, I will say wholeheartedly that the
>>> experience made me a stronger, more flexible, and ultimately a more
>>> independent adult. Adjusting to life in Colorado after spending my
>>> entire childhood and college years in Arizona (snow and all) wouldn’t
>>> have been nearly as easy if I hadn’t gone abroad by myself. If I’d had
>>> a companion follow me around everywhere, I wouldn’t have experienced
>>> the ups and downs of trying to make new friends in a foreign country
>>> or fully appreciated the unique culture and history that I learned
>>> about.
>>>
>>> The point, which I can’t emphasize enough, is that *blindness by
>>> itself* doesn’t necessitate having a full-time guide or companion in a
>>> new place. Priscilla, you’re absolutely right to want to go without
>>> your mother, and any school officials who claim that you have to have
>>> a full-time companion are mistaken and should talk with members of the
>>> NFB. If you’re going on a school trip, which it sounds like you are,
>>> you can get the information you need from lectures by  asking
>>> questions and listening. You can hire other students in your group to
>>> read printed things to you if they’re absolutely essential, and you
>>> can go places with other people in the group, or if you’re feeling
>>> more adventurous, go out there and explore just like sighted travelers
>>> do.
>>>
>>> However, not everyone, blind or sighted, has the desire or the
>>> confidence to face the challenges of studying abroad on their own.
>>> Fortunately there’s other ways to build your blindness skills,
>>> confidence and problem-solving abilities without having to rely on
>>> sighted companionship. Priscilla, if you want to go abroad, and want
>>> to have the best experience possible and an experience like what your
>>> sighted friends are getting, but are worried about handling the
>>> challenges of getting around etc., then I’d urge you to spend some
>>> time at one of our NFB training centers before you decide to go, if
>>> you haven’t already been to one. At a center you will learn how to
>>> contend with unfamiliar areas and other challenges on a much smaller
>>> scale before you jump into Europe, and when you come out you will have
>>> the skills and the confidence to really jump in and get the most out
>>> of it, without having to be tethered to somebody else.
>>>
>>> Priscilla and all, I’d encourage you to look at our Website,
>>> www.nabslink.org
>>> for information about the training that’s available to blind students
>>> and the types of things that, as a well-trained blind student, you’ll
>>> be able to do effectively and on your own.
>>>
>>> Feel free to write me off-list if you have specific study-abroad
>>> questions.
>>>
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/25/09, Haben Girma <habnkid at aol.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Serena, I know what you mean about internationals. It's a
>>> > generalization, so not true for everyone, but it does seem to be the
>>> > case that people from other countries, especially from the Third
>>> > World,
>>> > have a stronger sense of social responsibility. Grandparents are
>>> > usually
>>> > taken care of by their children rather than sent to retirement homes
>>> > in
>>> > the Third World. Also, the elderly are respected for being experienced
>>> > and wise, rather than being scorned for their old-fashion ways as they
>>> > sometimes are in America. Those are generalizations, again, and just
>>> > the
>>> > tip of the iceberg of why International students tend to be more
>>> > willing
>>> > to help.
>>> >
>>> > Haben
>>> >
>>> > Serena wrote:
>>> >> I just meant that the international students I knew didn't treat me
>>> >> any differently just cuz I'm blind.  True, they were sometimes more
>>> >> overprotective, but they never didn't want to help me.  My friend who
>>> >> went with me on the trip was shocked when he asked me if I'd found
>>> >> anyone else to go with and I said I hadn't.  He simply thought that
>>> >> my
>>> >> sighted classmates would want to help me out with the trip just cuz
>>> >> they were my friends or acquaintances.  This proved not to be the
>>> >> case.
>>> >>
>>> >> Serena
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> >> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> >> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 9:31 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> Question: how do international peopl have different values than the
>>> >>> average sighted American?  This is weird.  I know international
>>> >>> students who are very nice and help me whenever I ask for it, but
>>> >>> the
>>> >>> general sighted public is so self-centered these days.
>>> >>> Beth
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 4/24/09, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>> >>>> I agree that it should be a student , not a gardian.  I'm not sure
>>> that
>>> >>>> students going on the trip will necessarily want to help you,
>>> >>>> however,
>>> >>>> regardless of being paid, unless they're at least your
>>> >>>> acquaintances.  My
>>> >>>> senior year of college, there was a trip to Six Flags Great
>>> >>>> Adventure.  I
>>> >>>> asked several senior friends and acquaintances who were going, but
>>> >>>> nobody
>>> >>>> wanted to go with me, either cuz of the responsibility of my being
>>> >>>> blind or,
>>> >>>> simply, they didn't care about the situation!  I ended up asking a
>>> >>>> younger
>>> >>>> friend, who wasn't going originally, to do it and "paid" him,
>>> >>>> giving
>>> >>>> him a
>>> >>>> free ticket the Office of Student Activities gave me to "pay" him.
>>> >>>> I know
>>> >>>> he would've gone with me, even if I didn't pay him, cuz he's
>>> >>>> international,
>>> >>>> so has different values than the average sighted American.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Serena
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>>> From: "Beth" <thebluesisloose at gmail.com>
>>> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> >>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 8:10 PM
>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> I like the idea of someone hired as a guide, but it should be a
>>> >>>>> student going on the trip, not a parent or guardian because it
>>> >>>>> makes
>>> >>>>> us, the blind, look like minors or something above children.
>>> >>>>> We're
>>> >>>>> not that.
>>> >>>>> Beth
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On 4/24/09, Jason Mandarino <blind.subscriber at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>> I am sure it varies from campus to campus, but I actually had the
>>> >>>>>> option
>>> >>>>>> posed to me in regards to paying for a friend to come with me. My
>>> >>>>>> study
>>> >>>>>> abroad program acted like I could be a potential liability to
>>> >>>>>> them, so to
>>> >>>>>> make things as convenient as possible they covered the expense of
>>> >>>>>> a legal
>>> >>>>>> adult to accompany me. This individual did not qualify for the
>>> >>>>>> education
>>> >>>>>> credits, and I did not even spend all my time with them, but we
>>> >>>>>> had
>>> a
>>> >>>>>> blast.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I would not recommend taking your mother on this trip, as this
>>> >>>>>> will be a
>>> >>>>>> pioneer experience for you. You had approximately eighteen years
>>> >>>>>> under
>>> >>>>>> your
>>> >>>>>> mother, and it is now time for you to make some mistakes and take
>>> >>>>>> responsibility.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Additionally, you may be able to pull some funding from
>>> >>>>>> disability
>>> >>>>>> services
>>> >>>>>> in regards to the financing of your guide. Obviously your time is
>>> >>>>>> running
>>> >>>>>> out, so options may be worth while. My disability services cover
>>> >>>>>> all my
>>> >>>>>> additional expenses on campus, and randomly award me
>>> >>>>>> scholarships.
>>> >>>>>> They
>>> >>>>>> can
>>> >>>>>> not use the money for other purposes, so we might as well.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Just some ideas.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Sincerely,
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Mandarino
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> >>>>>> Behalf
>>> >>>>>> Of priscilla
>>> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 5:34 PM
>>> >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad advise
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Dear all listers,
>>> >>>>>> This is the second time I have this challenge when it cones to
>>> >>>>>> studying
>>> >>>>>> abroad since the first time I planned it ahead did not work out
>>> >>>>>> because
>>> >>>>>> of
>>> >>>>>> students backing out due to financial circumstances.
>>> >>>>>> I already worked out with a friend who was really willing to go
>>> >>>>>> abroad
>>> >>>>>> with
>>> >>>>>> me and she really liked the idea  of going to Israel.
>>> >>>>>> This time, I am going to Europe and traveling to Netherlands,
>>> >>>>>> Belgium,
>>> >>>>>> and
>>> >>>>>> Brussels.
>>> >>>>>> the dean met with me and my parents because my parents had
>>> >>>>>> concerns for
>>> >>>>>> me
>>> >>>>>> being on the trip since it is the first time I would actually
>>> >>>>>> travel with
>>> >>>>>> the school not counting the last time I planned another trip
>>> >>>>>> because it
>>> >>>>>> never happened.
>>> >>>>>> my situation is finding a close friend who can go because like I
>>> >>>>>> mentioned
>>> >>>>>> in previous post, there will be visual tours, lectures, and also
>>> >>>>>> I
>>> >>>>>> need
>>> >>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>> Hearn how to deal with being in the hotel.
>>> >>>>>> The dean suggested mom going as a result but as a last resort.
>>> >>>>>> I don' really like the idea of mom being with me at all times
>>> >>>>>> because of
>>> >>>>>> the
>>> >>>>>> fact that I feel more comfortable being with other friends in
>>> >>>>>> social
>>> >>>>>> settings, but most of my close friends already graduated so it
>>> >>>>>> does not
>>> >>>>>> count anymore since they are no longer at school
>>> >>>>>> I had a close friend who is going on the trip and although I
>>> >>>>>> explained to
>>> >>>>>> her my situation, she still wanted to go and was glad to help me,
>>> she
>>> >>>>>> unfortunately can't go because of family and financial hardships
>>> >>>>>> which
>>> >>>>>> was
>>> >>>>>> pretty sad.
>>> >>>>>> I tried talking to other friends to come and did explain my
>>> >>>>>> situation and
>>> >>>>>> they already know, but again, they couldn't afford to study
>>> >>>>>> abroad
>>> >>>>>> because
>>> >>>>>> of personal issues and the expenses not because they were afraid
>>> >>>>>> to help
>>> >>>>>> me
>>> >>>>>> but they had other more complicated issues and are worse off than
>>> >>>>>> I am.
>>> >>>>>> I even called my friend Valerie, but unfortunately she couldn't
>>> >>>>>> go
>>> >>>>>> because
>>> >>>>>> she graduated already and she is starting med school pretty soon.
>>> >>>>>> I am so frustrated because most of my friends who are glad to
>>> >>>>>> help
>>> >>>>>> can't
>>> >>>>>> unfortunately due to other issues of there own and I have to
>>> >>>>>> depend on
>>> >>>>>> mom
>>> >>>>>> as a last resort.
>>> >>>>>> but here is another problem, mom recently transferred to another
>>> >>>>>> school
>>> >>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>> teach and her employer is strict when it comes to long absences
>>> >>>>>> from work
>>> >>>>>> that are a week's worth or more.
>>> >>>>>> She called me up and told me  "I am not sure I I will be able to
>>> >>>>>> go
>>> >>>>>> because
>>> >>>>>> I have to talk to my employer and I don't really think they are
>>> >>>>>> willing
>>> >>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>> give me the days I need to go on this trip with you, but I will
>>> >>>>>> get moor
>>> >>>>>> information because I would like to go too."
>>> >>>>>> I am glad that mom is supporting me on this trip and I thank god
>>> 1000
>>> >>>>>> times
>>> >>>>>> for having grateful parents really and wholeheartedly.
>>> >>>>>> but, I am afraid she might interfere with the fact that I have to
>>> get
>>> >>>>>> used
>>> >>>>>> to being with my friends and do other stuff with them as opposed
>>> >>>>>> to her
>>> >>>>>> being with me all the time.
>>> >>>>>> I understand she has very deep concerns but, I just don't feel
>>> >>>>>> too
>>> >>>>>> comfortable being with mom while all my other friends are on the
>>> >>>>>> trip,
>>> >>>>>> but
>>> >>>>>> this is my last resort since I don't really have anybody else for
>>> >>>>>> support.
>>> >>>>>> So what do you all listers suggest please because I need to
>>> >>>>>> deposit the
>>> >>>>>> money as soon as possible and the latest is this coming Monday
>>> unless
>>> >>>>>> they
>>> >>>>>> cancel the trip which I am afraid because not many students are
>>> >>>>>> signing
>>> >>>>>> up
>>> >>>>>> due to a bad economy thanks to president bush's plan for giving
>>> other
>>> >>>>>> countries millions of dollars to be used in wars.
>>> >>>>>> So, please reply to this post with any advice, I really
>>> >>>>>> appreciate
>>> >>>>>> it.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Thank you very much
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Good day,
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Priscilla
>>> >>>>>> Ps. I am starting to plan some days with my of m instructor to
>>> >>>>>> learn how
>>> >>>>>> to
>>> >>>>>> travel on train because we might use that in Europe, and I am
>>> >>>>>> excited to
>>> >>>>>> learn but it is very difficult since my classes overlap and I get
>>> >>>>>> tutoring
>>> >>>>>> for my statistic course 4 days a week and have to use Fridays for
>>> >>>>>> projects
>>> >>>>>> which I need help in.
>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> mail.com
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
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>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
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>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
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>>> >>>
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>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Lora
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>