[nabs-l] NABS Leadership Update

Wed Jul 15 12:39:49 UTC 2009

Corbb,

what happens if a state that has no formal NABS presence, but still has 
registered paying voting members to the NABS meeting? Do they then lose the 
opportunity to vote, because there may or may not be a delegate from their 
state?

Do people now sit at NABS meetings by state if we adopt your idea, since a 
delegate may want to vote according to the will of the majority in their 
state? Does the delegate now become effectively the voice of their state, 
thus gaining more power than they really should have, being able to cast the 
one and only vote from their state?

I like the idea. Thanks for putting it out there. I don't see how it would 
work unless we decided to sit alphabetically by state.

If we can't even figure out marsheling to guide people towards the 
preregistered lines before a nabs meeting, I don't see how we can sit by 
state in alphabetical order. Too many letters in the alphabet to keep track 
of, grin.

Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corbb O'Connor" <corbbo at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS Leadership Update

Peter,

I have a different idea on one of your foundational asserations. You
say that voice votes and hand counts work well at the state at
national level. Voice votes do not work, as was seen during the
Freeman/Sayer election of 2009. To resolve that election, delegations
were given one vote each. Those votes were then tallied to settle the
election. As Jeannie Massay proposed, NABS ought adopt delegation
voting. If, after a voice vote, no candidate appears to have received
a majority of the votes, each state whose delegate or alternate is in
the room would have one vote each. That would be accountable,
equitable, and decorous.

Oh, and by the way, that's a system that could be run completely by
blind people without sighted assistance.

Corbb

On Jul 14, 2009, at 3:08 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:

Good afternoon everyone,

        Having personally witnessed and reading many of the posts
concerning
the NABS Election all I can say is whoosh!!

    The first question I'm inclined to ask is Why reinvent the wheel?
Voice
votes and hand counts work extremely well in chapter and division
meetings,
state and national convention general sessions. Make them work for
NABS. The
above methods work fine for tallying votes in these gatherings so why
not
keep things simple when there is so much more to be done instead of
spending
valuable time fighting over election procedures?Sticking with the
tried and
true is far better than using election methods, (Showing cards and
creating
paper trails) that are cumbersome, and slow down the election process.
I've
heard elections in a few states where similar methods have been
employed and
observed what happened. For God sakes stay with the tried and true and
get
on with the business of bettering the lives of blind students!

    Much was made over the fact that persons were voting that hadn't
registered. Does such paranoia occur during the elections held during
our
general sessions? What happened to trust? I have yet to walk in to a
state
or national convention general session where attendees were asked to
show
cards when voting to show proof of registration. I thought that's why
we are
encouraged to wear our name tags to be identified as registered
convention
attendees?This method has worked for many, many years so why reinvent
it?
The old adage, "If it's not broke don't fix it" need to apply to the
NABS
elections.

    Just my observations from a former student division member and a
very
tired sound tech technician  who has replayed these elections several
times
over. All the best for a great year ahead and please let's get on with
the
business of improving education opportunities for blind students.

Peter Donahue

   ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS Leadership Update

Listers:

As far as vote counting goes, I'd really like to see a method that can
be run completely by blind people since we're a blindness organization.
In most cases, voice voting works well enough provided that the
membership is mature enough to use it correctly. I'd be willing to use
a balloting system if it can be handled efficiently.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hi Joseph and all,

>        While this was explained at the meeting, I’ll reiterate for  those
> who
> weren’t at convention. The voice vote, in which people say “I” if they
> support a particular candidate, is used only as a preliminary voting
> method. The voice vote determines the election outcome only when one
> candidate receives an overwhelming majority of the vote. If the voice
> vote sounds at all inconclusive, the election leader will call for a
> hand count and the candidate receiving more than half of the votes
> wins. Even if the election leader believes the voice vote is
> conclusive, a candidate who disagrees can always call for a hand
> count. We have these protections in place to prevent races from being
> decided by “which group screams the loudest”. Any candidate who
> garners a significant amount of support will receive enough “I’s” to
> render a hand count necessary, and again, the candidate always has the
> right to ask for a hand count regardless of what the election leader
> decides. In fact, last weekend, almost every contest was ultimately
> decided by a hand count, even though we started off with a voice vote.

>        You are right that the NABS constitution says nothing about  voice
> voting. I need to find out if there is a national policy that
> overrides our constitution, making voice voting necessary. There are
> definite advantages and disadvantages to starting off with a voice
> vote before preceding to a hand count.

> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students

> On 7/13/09, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> Joseph and all:

>> I was present at the election and even made a go for an office or  two.
>> In my opinion, the election did have integrity simply because those
>> running it tried to make it as fair as they knew how. Elections are
>> tough especially if you've never run one before. I rmember trying to
>> arrange Washington State's constitution. Arielle was there. Arielle
>> well remembers how chaotic that was and how unhappy some folks were.
>> Hell, some members even got upset because they said the presence of  Dr.
>> maurer swayed the vote over whether or not we should vote members  into
>> our organization or just let them in once they've paid their dues. In
>> fact, didn't we have to redo that one twice just to make everyone
>> happy? I remember that day and how stressed everyone was. This last
>> election at the national level reminds me of that chaos.

>> I guess the reality is that there will always be those who wished the
>> election happened in their favor. Take, for example, all those who
>> grumbled when Barack Obama won this last year's U.S. presidency. And
>> don't forget the fiasco over Bush vs. Gore in 2001. In other words,  our
>> craziness last Saturday isn't unique to NABS, the NFB, or to blind
>> guys. It's just what happens sometimes. But as Arielle said, there  are
>> ways we can curb the craziness a bit. I have also given some  thought to
>> how we might smooth the process for future NABS participants and  their
>> officers. And like you, joseph, i'm trying to work it out in my own
>> mind. Having focus groups is a great idea, and I hope to be  informed as
>> to when they occur.

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>> Original message:
>>> Nijat,

>>> One look at the vote counts—so conveniently all multiples of
>>> ten—calls their accuracy into question.  That students in the room
>>> report different counts isn't surprising, until you note that their
>>> reports indicate higher counts for losers than were reported to us  in
>>> a few races, including your runoff, actually.

>>> Personally, I decided not to participate after that point.  We don't
>>> have 100% agreement on the counts, but there's enough discrepancy
>>> often enough to call the whole thing into question.  I'm not  saying I
>>> won any of those elections, but I am saying I'm not quite sure in a
>>> few cases who should have.  I am honestly not sure how many people
>>> were getting involved trying to do something about it, but there was
>>> more than three or four.

>>> There are only two things I am sure of: First, no good is likely to
>>> come of any effort that group might make.  Second, a member of the
>>> board telling us not to worry our pretty little heads ... just isn't
>>> going to make things better.  Both sound disastrous to me.

>>> This isn't about who did or did not win an election.  It's about the
>>> membership of this organization believing a real election actually
>>> took place.  If even a significant minority doubt that, then it is
>>> bad for NABS, even if you assume every one of them will age-out of
>>> NABS in a few years.  We reflect the NFB as a whole, and we should
>>> reflect it well.

>>> I serve the organization, not the board.  I will yet see two boards
>>> serve while I remain a student.  It is in the organization's  interest
>>> to make sure what we saw last Saturday does not happen again.  I  have
>>> a solution, but it's not a complete solution yet.  It does result in
>>> a paper trail, or at least a box full of index cards.  Still working
>>> out how to handle runoff elections.

>>> Joseph

>>> On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 04:05:04PM -0600, Nijat Worley wrote:
>>>> Greetings Joseph,
>>>>  I believe that there is little doubt about the legitimacy of the
>>>> current NABS board and the process by which they were elected.  Those
>>>> who
>>>> are angry, and those who want to grumble about it, and still  those who
>>>> want to take action about it, have little ground to do so. Besides,
>>>> what
>>>> kind of action would be appropriate at this point? The former  board 
>>>> and
>>>> Terri did their best to make sure that the elections were fair.  They
>>>> did
>>>> almost every vote by a hand count at your request. I am utterly
>>>> surprised
>>>> that you are still dissatisfied about the outcome of the  elections. I
>>>> understand there were some mistakes made in the election process,  and
>>>> the
>>>> board has made note of them. We will take proper action to make  sure
>>>> that
>>>> those mistakes don't happen again. I do agree with you that to  try to
>>>> do
>>>> anything  that might divide the organization at this point would  only
>>>> counter your intentions. NABS is an ever changing and evolving
>>>> organization simply because of the fact that many of its members  both
>>>> on
>>>> the board and off the board come and go so quickly. Nobody stays in
>>>> NABS
>>>> forever. We are all new to this organization, and we all make 
>>>> mistakes.
>>>> I
>>>> appreciate you expressing your concerns and telling folks to stay
>>>> united,
>>>> because only united, can we make change and strengthen this
>>>> organization
>>>> for the benefit of all. I always tell our members both at the  state 
>>>> and
>>>> national level that one does not have to be on the board to help  out
>>>> the
>>>> organization and to be a leader. I think Arielle intends to get
>>>> everybody
>>>> involved in the development and growth of NABS. I am very pleased  to
>>>> say
>>>> that I saw many of you at the Monty Carlo night helping us put it
>>>> together and wrap it up at the end. We couldn't have done it  without
>>>> you.
>>>> Thanks to B. J. Sexton, Caron Anderson, Willie Black, Jim, Jedi,  and
>>>> many
>>>> others for staying and helping with Monty Carlo Night. Let us put
>>>> behind
>>>> us any hard feelings that may be in our chests and move on to  bigger
>>>> and
>>>> better things for the sake of NABS if for nothing else.
>>>>  At your service,
>>>>  Nijat

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> --
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org

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