[nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?
Harry Hogue
harryhogue at yahoo.com
Thu Sep 24 10:43:31 UTC 2009
I agree, from the stand point of the blind person (which I am, of course). I was looking at it from the point of view of the random person on the street; a rather useful exercise, in my opinion.
Respectfully,
Harry
--- On Thu, 9/24/09, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
> From: Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What would you do?
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 4:53 AM
> Harry,
>
> That may be, but it's still no less acceptable to me to be
> grabbed and steered, especially when I can communicate just
> fine. When I find sighted people getting flustered, I tell
> them to stop, breathe, think clearly, then try again. If
> that doesn't work, I ask them key questions that are likely
> to get me the answers I want. Even less acceptable are the
> times when sighted people grab me thinking I want their help
> when they haven't even asked and just assumed that I did.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
>
> Original message:
> > Please do not forget that often when people direct
> through some physical means, it is simply the best way they
> know to communicate direction; many people find it tedious
> to verbally direct someone. The physical focus with
> the sighted person is pointing. Explanations are not
> given in this context; minimal verbal direction, while
> maximizing gestures is used. Likewise, with a blind
> person, a physical direction to the person's desired course
> (read: pointing) and minimal verbal direction is used.
>
> > I hope I am making sense to the rest of you; it is
> logical to me. A coin always has two sides, a story
> multiple interpretations, etc...
>
> > Harry
>
>
> > --- On Thu, 9/24/09, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward Situations: What
> would you do?
> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >> Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 12:53 AM
> >> Why do people think it is okay to
> >> touch us when they wouldn't do the same to
> sighted
> >> adults. I have thought about this a lot and
> have
> >> concluded that part of their minds put us in the
> same class
> >> as small children, so it is okay to touch and
> direct us as
> >> we are semi-helpless and need assistance.
>
> >> Clearly some people don't regard us as
> independent, fully
> >> functional, rights-holding adults.
>
> >> Dave
>
> >> At 12:35 AM 9/23/2009, you wrote:
> >>> a couple of things that were interesting
> >> were the concept of space.
> >>> I find so much that people will grap you
> >> and push you to redirect
> >>> you; something you would clearly not do to
> a
> >> sighted individual. I
> >>> wonder what logical reason
> >> people have cross their minds to make
> >> it
> >>> ok. to do something like that.
>
> >>> As for people identifying
> >> themselves; some people do a rather good
> >>> job of saying where I've met them (
> >> that is those who don't screw
> >>> up my name
> >> lol). within my time in AmeriCorps, I
> >> would actually
> >>> hold a conversation with someone for a
> couple of
> >> minutes and within
> >>> this conversation I could figure out what
> >> project they had, what
> >>> team they were on, and by doing so I was able
> to
> >> successfully id the
> >>> person. So the only way I
> >> think this relates back, is sometimes
> >>> you just have to kind of make a
> >> person talk a bit and you'll
> >>> probably find out who it is if you have time
> to.
>
> >>> On 9/22/09, Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>> Hello All.
> >>>> I have not been following this thread
> faithfully,
> >> however, I just
> >>>> schemed through and found some very
> interesting
> >> questions that are
> >>>> actually not unique in this setting. I am
> a
> >> psychology major at Emory
> >>>> University, where research is our middle
> name!
> >> Thus, some of this
> >>>> facial expression experiments have been
> conducted
> >> here. but I will
> >>>> just talk about a very classic experiment
> >> by Paul Ekman.
> >>>> Paul Ekman took videos of 100s of remote
> cultures
> >> from all around the
> >>>> world. He took clips of those videos and
> >> classified the facial
> >>>> expression, by categorizing what muscles
> in the
> >> face were used to make
> >>>> those expressions. As he watched more and
> more
> >> clipse he determined a
> >>>> clear pattern of emotions, of people
> across
> >> cultures who had never met
> >>>> each other, some of which had not tv or
> access to
> >> the outside world,
> >>>> and who had radically different customs
> and
> >> traditions.
> >>>> He then took pictures of different faces
> and
> >> asked others what emotion
> >>>> the subject in the picture was
> experiencing. He
> >> discovered that for
> >>>> the most part most people could tell what
> the
> >> picture was showing.
> >>>> Thus, he came up with a few basic emotions
> which
> >> are:
> >>>> Anger
> >>>> Disgust
> >>>> Fear
> >>>> Happiness
> >>>> Sadness
> >>>> Surprise
> >>>> Later, in 1992, he added to the list,
> disgust,
> >> contempt, pride,
> >>>> excitement, embarrassment, guilt,
> relief,
> >> satisfaction, sensory
> >>>> pleasure and shame. I think i got them
> all. All
> >> this is to say, that
> >>>> facial expression are not cultural or
> learned
> >> behavior, but rather
> >>>> biological. Thus, as a blind person, our
> face
> >> reflect at the very
> >>>> least these emotions that I listed. The
> only
> >> difference is that we are
> >>>> not readily conscious of how we make these
> face
> >> of guilt for example.
> >>>> Sighted people can look in the mirror and
> >> practice looking ashamed, it
> >>>> is a certain slant of the eyes, a certain
> >> lowering of the brows, we
> >>>> have to think about it and consciously
> make an
> >> effort if we want to
> >>>> become proficient at making these
> expressions at
> >> will. I am a
> >>>> performer as well, and one of the big
> things I
> >> work on is facial
> >>>> expression, how do I consciously convey to
> the
> >> audience what I'm
> >>>> feeling? It takes practice but it is
> doable. And
> >> it is a valid skill
> >>>> to learn, since sometimes we want to hide
> a
> >> little bit that anger we
> >>>> fell towards our manager! Ok, my answer
> was a
> >> little long.
> >>>> But all this is to merely say, that when
> you are
> >> pissed off, it will
> >>>> show on your face. Smile. If you however,
> do not
> >> show any facial
> >>>> expression or significantly lack body
> language,
> >> this is not do to
> >>>> being blind and not having learned
> expressions,
> >> it is rather a
> >>>> personality thing, and it probably just
> means
> >> that you are much more
> >>>> cool-headed, and get less easily aroused
> than
> >> most people.
> >>>> Mary
>
> >>>> On 9/22/09, Teal Bloodworth <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>> Right i have no usable vision. Not all
> blind
> >> people are socially awkwad if
> >>>>> they are blind from birth. I agree
> with you
> >> that explaining is basically a
> >>>>> waste of time. I am saying this guy
> brought
> >> questions to my mind....is it
> >>>>> harder to lose your vision mid life or
> to
> >> never have it to lose? Things
> >>>>> like
> >>>>> this and if one has been sheltered
> either
> >> sighted or not they are going to
> >>>>> have a bit of social awkwardness. This
> guy
> >> had never really been around
> >>>>> people without knowing how to act.
>
>
> >> -Teal
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
> >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind
> Students
> >> mailing list"
> >>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 5:30
> PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward
> Situations:
> >> What would you do?
>
>
> >>>>>> I hope you are not implying that
> all
> >> people that have been blind since
> >>>>>> birth are socially awkward. I may
> not have
> >> lots of sighted friends, but
> >>>>>> this is not due to me not knowing
> how to
> >> act. Also when people concitter
> >>>>>> themselves blind it does not meen
> that
> >> they see absolootly nothing. I have
> >>>>>> a little bit of usable vision, but
> not
> >> enough to do much with and when
> >>>>>> people ask I say I am blind. I
> don't
> >> bother with attempting to explain the
> >>>>>> miniscule amount of vision I have,
> it just
> >> confuses people.
>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Teal Bloodworth" <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> To: "National Association of
> Blind
> >> Students mailing list"
> >>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009
> 5:29
> >> PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward
> Situations:
> >> What would you do?
>
>
> >>>>>>> well honestly i have only been
> around
> >> one guy totally blind since birth
> >>>>>>> and he was socially awkward.
> When he
> >> was happy or excited he would do a
> >>>>>>> wiggling of the butt up
> against
> >> someone and would giggle like a child
> >>>>>>> when he was 27. I think he
> was
> >> sheltered his whole life by his parents
> >>>>>>> since he was adopted and the
> only
> >> blind/V.I. in the house. I guess this
> >>>>>>> gave me an indifferent
> impression.
>
> >>>>>>> Another guy with retina
> problems can
> >> see like looking through a straw
> >>>>>>> and
>
> >>>>>>> was a senior in college trying
> to be
> >> a priest. He is probably my hero
> >>>>>>> and
>
> >>>>>>> gave me some saying i will use
> in the
> >> future.
>
>
> >> -Teal
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> >>>>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 21,
> 2009 3:50
> >> PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Awkward
> >> Situations: What would you do?
>
>
> >>>>>>>> Teal,
>
> >>>>>>>> I don't know which blind
> guys
> >> you're hanging with, but I don't notice
> >>>>>>>> too much difference
> between those
> >> born blind versus those who had sight
> >>>>>>>> at some point.
> Fundamentally,
> >> there is no significant personality
> >>>>>>>> differences between the
> two. Life
> >> experiences may vary, and life
> >>>>>>>> experiences shape our
> >> perceptions, but not so much so that it
> >>>>>>>> fundamentally changes an
> >> individual on such a deep level. That is,
> >>>>>>>> unless they let it.
>
> >>>>>>>> Respectfully,
> >>>>>>>> Jedi
>
>
> >>>>>>>> Original message:
> >>>>>>>>> you dont show any
> emotion? I
> >> am sorry but that is hard to
> >>>>>>>>> believe....maybe
> >>>>>>>>> the facial expression
> you do
> >> show is presumibly unfriendly?
>
> >>>>>>>>> As for them not
> talking to
> >> you that is rediculus. The dark shades is
> >>>>>>>>> alittle
> >>>>>>>>> stereotipical for me
> but i
> >> oddly keep my eyes open....Not sure why and
> >>>>>>>>> i say
> >>>>>>>>> i am totally blind but
> i dont
> >> just see darkness. This is probably a
> >>>>>>>>> psychological factor
> in that
> >> i see a type of gray scale all the time
> >>>>>>>>> and in
> >>>>>>>>> department stores it
> seems to
> >> be lighter because of the numerous
> >>>>>>>>> florescent
> >>>>>>>>> lighting but other
> times i
> >> cannot really tell for sure whether i am in
> >>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> lighted room or not.
> Have you
> >> been blind or visually impaired since
> >>>>>>>>> birth? I
> >>>>>>>>> have found a slight
> >> difference in personality characteristics in
> >>>>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>>>> blind since birth and
> those
> >> that have become blind in the middle of
> >>>>>>>>> life.
> >>>>>>>>> And honestly i have
> heard of
> >> people who wear the dark shades but never
> >>>>>>>>> personally met anyone
> that
> >> does. Can i ask you why you choose to do
> >>>>>>>>> so?
>
>
> >> -Teal
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message
> -----
> >>>>>>>>> From: "Mark J.
> Cadigan"
> >> <kramc11 at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> To: "National
> Association of
> >> Blind Students mailing list"
> >>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday,
> September 20,
> >> 2009 8:21 PM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
> Awkward
> >> Situations: What would you do?
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Most sighted
> people just
> >> think I am angry or something based off my
> >>>>>>>>>> facial
> >>>>>>>>>> expression. I am
> just
> >> neutral, neither happy nor mad or any ware else
> >>>>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>>> the emotional
> spectrum.
> >> Some people don't like it when I don't
> >>>>>>>>>> make/keep
> >>>>>>>>>> eye contact.
> Sometimes
> >> people don't talk to me, because they think I
> >>>>>>>>>> am
> >>>>>>>>>> too unreadable at
> times.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> As a side note,
> how do
> >> you think wearing dark sunglasses all the time
> >>>>>>>>>> affects others
> reaction
> >> to you? In my experience my dark glasses and
> >>>>>>>>>> occasionally
> emotionless
> >> body language create a lot of oukword
> >>>>>>>>>> situations.
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original
> Message
> >> -----
> >>>>>>>>>> From: "Teal
> Bloodworth"
> >> <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>> To: "National
> Association
> >> of Blind Students mailing list"
> >>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday,
> September
> >> 20, 2009 9:00 PM
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re:
> [nabs-l]
> >> Awkward Situations: What would you do?
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Honestly, yes
> i have
> >> had vision before but my eye movement via TBI
> >>>>>>>>>>> isnt
> >>>>>>>>>>> the best
> however
> >> people say through my facial expressions and
> >>>>>>>>>>> ability
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> look in the
> direction
> >> of the person thanks to depth perception
> >>>>>>>>>>> people
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> say
> >>>>>>>>>>> i dont even
> look
> >> blind. I am not sure of what a typical blind
> person
> >>>>>>>>>>> looks like but
> i
> >> believe all of these reflexes you are describing
> >>>>>>>>>>> comes
> >>>>>>>>>>> naturally from
> your
> >> environment and maturation during infancy. We
> >>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>> actually
> talking
> >> about this in developmental psych. Reflexes like
> >>>>>>>>>>> reaching,
> grabbing
> >> and walking and talking is a distinct
> >>>>>>>>>>> developmental
> >>>>>>>>>>> stage
> according to
> >> piaget. Some say we learn these through
> >>>>>>>>>>> environment
> >>>>>>>>>>> and social
> >> interaction while others say it is a specific
> cognative
> >>>>>>>>>>> change
> >>>>>>>>>>> in our
> biological
> >> being.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree with
> yu that
> >> it is a very interesting question and this
> >>>>>>>>>>> topic
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> a personal
> interest.
> >> As for showing the world when you are pissed
> >>>>>>>>>>> off
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>>>> sad or even
> happy i
> >> dont think you learn from actually seeing other
> >>>>>>>>>>> peoples
> responses to
> >> an action. I believe you learn these emotions
> >>>>>>>>>>> through
> personality
> >> development of what actions give you these
> >>>>>>>>>>> feelings,
> >>>>>>>>>>> then these
> feelings
> >> are visually portrayed naturally.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Dont quote me
> on
> >> anything, this is my opinion of the answer to
> your
> >>>>>>>>>>> question...i
> am a
> >> social work/psychology major
>
>
> >> -Teal
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> -----
> Original
> >> Message -----
> >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Joseph
> C.
> >> Lininger" <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: "National
> >> Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday,
> >> September 20, 2009 5:29 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re:
> [nabs-l]
> >> Awkward Situations: What would you do?
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----BEGIN
> PGP
> >> SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hash:
> SHA256
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Teal,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> LOL That's
> funny.
> >> Honestly, I've never had much sight and never had
> >>>>>>>>>>>> muscle
> control
> >> over my eyes. So I don't know much about looking
> at
> >>>>>>>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>>>>>>> people,
> eye
> >> contact, that sort of thing. I have been told
> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> disconcerting for
> >> a person to never make eye contact, and that it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>> even
> >>>>>>>>>>>> more
> >> disconcerting for a person to make eye contact
> constantly
> >> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> never
> >>>>>>>>>>>> break it.
> I'm
> >> afraid I never learned the finer points though.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is
> somewhat
> >> related, and I'd be curious to know what the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> psychologists and
> >> sociologists among you think. I'll need to lay a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> little
> ground
> >> work for the more general question, so bare with
> me.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I've
> >>>>>>>>>>>> known for
> some
> >> time that my emotions and moods are
> communicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>> visually,
> at
> >> least sometimes. But I had something happen that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> actually
> >>>>>>>>>>>> got me
> curious
> >> about trying to find out exactly how it happens.
> We
> >>>>>>>>>>>> had a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> router go
> down in
> >> a data center at a company I had been working for
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> few months
> ago.
> >> I'd had a bad day the day before trying to get
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> everything
> >> working, and that router went down at about 4 am
> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> took
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> entire
> company
> >> off the Internet. Well, I came out of my hotel
> room
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> one of the
> first
> >> things the guy driving me to the data center said
> >>>>>>>>>>>> was,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "wow Joe,
> you
> >> look really pissed off. Like maybe you'd like to
> kill
> >>>>>>>>>>>> someone."
> I
> >> hadn't given any hint to being pissed off, though
> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> was.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't
> even aware
> >> of it being communicated in my looks, I'd tried
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> look
> pleasant and
> >> ready for another day despite the promise of yet
> >>>>>>>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>>>>>> problems.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> After
> this, I
> >> became curious about exactly how expressive or not
> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with body
> >> language, facial expressions, etc. I asked people
> who had
> >>>>>>>>>>>> known me
> for a
> >> while, mainly family members about it and they
> all
> >>>>>>>>>>>> said I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> was in
> fact
> >> expressive visually, at least to a point. My
> sister
> >>>>>>>>>>>> even
> >>>>>>>>>>>> provided
> a
> >> running commentary one day for a few minutes on
> what my
> >>>>>>>>>>>> face
> >>>>>>>>>>>> was doing
> while
> >> conversing with people at her house. So, here's
> my
> >>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I always
> thought
> >> that at least to a point people learned these
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> expressions and
> >> that mostly by observing those around them and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> learning
> >>>>>>>>>>>> what they
> meant.
> >> I knew basic stuff like a smile or frown didn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that way,
> and I
> >> could even understand certain reflexive
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> expressions.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> For
> >>>>>>>>>>>> example,
> >> stiffening in response to fear or anger. However,
> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> thought
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> more
> detailed
> >> stuff, arching eyebrows, moving of the eyes with
> >>>>>>>>>>>> certain
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> expressions, that
> >> sort of thing was learned behavior. Well, seeing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> how I
> can't see
> >> others doing these things and never have been
> able
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> how would
> I have
> >> possibly picked them up? Have any experiments
> been
> >>>>>>>>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>>>>>> regarding
> such
> >> things? And more interesting... Some stuff, such
> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>> nodding,
> shaking
> >> the head, or shrugging, I had to be specifically
> >>>>>>>>>>>> taught
> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
> while I
> >> didn't other expressions. Does anyone have any
> ideas
> >>>>>>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>>>>> what
> governs what
> >> visual cues are natural or learned in spite of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> lack of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> vision and
> which
> >> must be picked up visually?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> - --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Stress
> (N): The
> >> condition that occurs when ones mind overrides
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> body's
> natural
> >> desire to reach out and slap the hell out of
> someone
> >>>>>>>>>>>> who
> desperately
> >> deserves it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Joseph C.
> >> Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
>
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>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l
> mailing
> >> list
> >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>
>
>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing
> list
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>
>
>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing
> list
> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>
>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>
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> >>>> --
> >>>> Mary Fernandez
> >>>> Emory University 2012
> >>>> P.O. Box 123056
> >>>> Atlanta Ga.
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> >>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
> >>>> In reaffirming the greatness of our
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> earned.
> >>>> President Barack Obama
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