[nabs-l] WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?
Marc Workman
mworkman.lists at gmail.com
Sat Sep 25 16:06:03 UTC 2010
For me, Kirt, the key sentence in your response is the following:
Because we live in such a social world, I think it's fair to say those
social attitudes are, unfortunately, a part of blindness in our society.
There's a bit of ambiguity here. If you mean such attitudes are a part of
our society today, at this moment, then I doubt that many would disagree.
But if you mean that such attitudes are necessarily, inevitably, must always
be, a part of our society, then this is the point of disagreement I think.
I don't think such attitudes are necessarily part of our society. There is
evidence drawn from other civil rights movements, and from the organized
blind movement itself, that significant progress can be, and still is being,
made.
So in so far as an article like the one in question fails to emphasize the
social barriers that impede the success of blind people, it is problematic
and should be questioned and challenged. Note the phrase, in so far as. I
don't think anyone is saying that the article can't be helpful in some ways.
This article might inspire a blind person who has come to believe that she
is inadequate and can't do anything, or the article might cause some
employers to judge potential employees based on their skills, as did the
employer in the article. However, these possible benefits of such an
article do not mean that there aren't serious problems with it as well.
Whether an article like this does more harm than good, I'm not sure if any
critical comments have claimed, so I think that's still an open question.
Best,
Marc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 3:16 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?
> Darrel,
> You said exactly what I wanted to. You're just better at it.
> Jedi,
> Fair enough, but you needed the training, even if the hardest part
> was overcoming the stereotypes. Because we live in such a social
> world, I think it's fair to say those social attitudes are,
> unfortunately, a part of blindness in our society. There's no way a
> blind person's not going to encounter those so, to me, that's a part
> of blindness. Which means, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you had
> stereotypes to get past the typical sighted person does not. In that
> way, there was an extra step in you learning how to cook. So...I'm
> not trying to generalize how quickly you learn how to cook, I'm just
> saying blindness presents an extra challenge with it, even if that
> challenge for you was mostly psychological. Am I making any sense?
> Respectfully yours,
> Kirt
>
> On 9/25/10, darrel kirby <dkirby at mchsi.com> wrote:
>> I have been watching this thread closely and I find it very interesting.
>> I
>> feel that my current employment is rather normal. I strive to do my job
>> well. I am currently employed full-time as a therapist within the
>> Psychiatric Services Department of a large hospital. I often hear things
>> like "you are so amazing" and so on. I know that what I do is quite
>> ordinary. I use blind-skills in my life and at my job, but my education
>> and
>> practice to become a great therapist is not learned through
>> instruction/education focused on visual techniques. I do my job well and
>> strive to be the best therapist I can be, but acknowledge that blindness
>> is
>> not a significant factor in becoming the therapist I want to become.
>>
>> However, when I read this article, I was amazed with this woman. I
>> thought
>> her courage and hard work in overcoming barriers is very impressive. I
>> also
>> recognize that she has dove into a profession that very few blind people
>> have had the courage to explore. I asked a friend of mine about the
>> teaching
>> approaches of instructors in a Culinary School. He stated that the
>> techniques are presented in mostly visual methods, but also recognized
>> the
>> importance of "hands-on" learning. My point being, I do thing this
>> woman's
>> ability to gain the skill and knowledge of professional cooking from
>> "standard" methods of Culinary Arts instruction is extraordnary. I do not
>> believe that it takes a "super blind" person to become a blind chef or a
>> "super genious" to do what this young woman has accomplished, but I think
>> from her story that she has a drive and determination that is amazing -
>> whether she has sight or not.
>> With all that being said, the author of the article should not be
>> expected
>> to know what it means to be blind by spending a few moments with one
>> blind
>> person. The over-all theme of the article gave credit to this individual
>> and
>> her drive to not let her blindness slow her down. Although not the
>> perfectly
>> written article from a blind person's perspective, it was an
>> inspirational
>> and educational article to read.
>>
>> Just My Opinion,
>>
>> Darrel Kirby
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Mary Fernandez
>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 2:25 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?
>>
>> Hey all,
>> Thanks Jedi for the .input I could not have said it better. I truly
>> understand how strong and incredible this woman is. Think about it.
>> Her primary challenge wasn't so much that she was blind, but her life's
>> circumstances, over coming poverty, language barrier, not getting
>> appropriate services and such. Add to that her blindness and you really
>> have
>> to possess a lot of determination to do what she has. But this article in
>> my
>> opinion , makes it sound like if it hadn't been for the sighted
>> assistants
>> and what not, she wouldn't have made it. The whole holding your hands out
>> and being lost in your own home, and the way they described her searching
>> for the right knife is just not right. I mean, you don't see many
>> articles saying, oh look, Emerald peered closely at his knifes, being
>> careful not to touch the blade unless he cut himself. Just my thoughts.
>> Mary
>> On Sep 24, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Jedi wrote:
>>
>>> Hey, didn't you happen to notice that the things she could do were
>> attributed to some superhuman ability to touch or smell or hear, and that
>> the writer described her movements around the kitchen at school and home
>> in
>> much the same way the stereotypical blind person is thought to move
>> around
>> (helpless, lost, hands out in front of them, etc). That's pretty
>> southward
>> to me. I doubt that's how Martinez wanted to be portrayed. While the
>> article
>> doesn't minimize her accomplishments, it's definitely a juxtiposition
>> between her real capability and what people really think blindness is all
>> about. Did you also happen to notice the whole Helen Keller theme where
>> Martinez was sort of brought into the world by an ever-patient sighted
>> mentor? Hmmmm. I can understand why Andy feels angry.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Hello Andy,
>>>> I thought it was excellent. I kept waiting for it to go South but in
>>>> my
>>>> opinion it didn't. I do not think any of us who are totally blind are
>> ever
>>>> going to impress sighted people more than this woman has done.
>>>> Blindness
>> is
>>>> a disability, even though many blind people argue that it isn't. When
>>>> I
>>>> hear that argument being made, it is always clear to me that its
>> proponent
>>>> is trying to convince him or her self of its truth. No sighted person
>>>> is
>>>> ever going to buy it. This woman is at the top of her game, and for
>> those
>>>> not familiar with Chicago, this restaurant is extremely exclusive, and
>> this
>>>> article will do a lot to help us as a group be perceived as having the
>>>> ability to be competent despite blindness. Most sighted people know
>>>> that
>>>> this blind woman is outperforming them, because they themselves could
>> never
>>>> get a job as a chef at a restaurant like this one.
>>>> Happy cooking,
>>>> Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Andi" <adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 3:16 PM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?
>>>
>>>
>>>>> i read this article, and was excited about this womans success but
>>>>> was
>>>>> angry about how the writer of the article portrayed her! I have also
>> been
>>>>> rongly portrayed in newspaper articals as I am sure many of you have.
>>>>> I
>>>>> find news papers like to make a spectical of any one with a
>>>>> "disability"
>>>>> that does anything remotely normal and even more of a side show of
>> someone
>>>>> who does something most "able bodied" people would have trouble doing.
>>>>> This makes me angry because they take a positive advancement for the
>> blind
>>>>> and turn it in to a condescension of the blind. How do you all feel
>> about
>>>>> this and other articals like it. Do you have any sugjestions on how
>>>>> to
>>>>> redirect it back to a positive to the world?
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Blind chef gains national acclaim
>>>>> local/article_9884f76e-5023-11df-a9be-001cc4c03286 frame
>>>>> local/article_9884f76e-5023-11df-a9be-001cc4c03286 frame end
>>>>> the quad-city times
>>>
>>>>> FORMER MOLINE RESIDENT COOKS AT GOURMET RESTAURANT IN CHICAGO
>>>
>>>>> Blind chef gains national acclaim
>>>
>>>>> Kay Luna | Posted: Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:15 am
>>>
>>>>> Laura Martinez reaches out her hands, delicately running her fingers
>> atop
>>>>> the kitchen counter and across several sharp knives and a vegetable
>>>>> grater.
>>>
>>>>> She isn't afraid of getting cut.
>>>
>>>>> She never does, Martinez says.
>>>
>>>>> Picking up a very large knife, she feels the top of the blade.
>>>
>>>>> "This one is for vegetables," the 25-year-old former resident of
>>>>> Moline
>>>>> softly says. "It has ridges."
>>>
>>>>> The other knife is even longer and heavier. She picks it up,
>>>>> explaining
>>>>> that this one is called a chef's knife and she uses it to cut meat.
>>>
>>>>> But right now, Martinez needs to dice some fresh parsley. So, she
>>>>> feels
>>>>> around on the counter again for the cutting board, using her sense of
>>>>> touch to make
>>>>> sure the parsley is lined up just right.
>>>
>>>>> Then, without an ounce of fear, she begins chopping up the parsley
>>>>> with
>>>>> the fast-moving technique employed by professional chefs - because she
>> is
>>>>> one.
>>>
>>>>> Martinez works as a chef in the kitchen of Charlie Trotter's, an
>> exclusive
>>>>> gourmet restaurant in Chicago.
>>>
>>>>> She also happens to be blind.
>>>
>>>>> Fast learner gets inspiration
>>>
>>>>> When Martinez was little, she did not realize she was different from
>>>>> anyone else. She thought everyone lived in darkness. She adapted to
>>>>> it.
>>>
>>>>> She wanted to become a surgeon someday.
>>>
>>>>> "I always liked knives," she said with a smile.
>>>
>>>>> When she got older, she learned that she had been diagnosed with
>>>>> retinal
>>>>> blastoma, a type of cancer of the eyes, as a very young child. That is
>>>>> what caused
>>>>> her blindness.
>>>
>>>>> Doctors removed one eye. Then the chemotherapy and radiation used to
>> treat
>>>>> the cancer ultimately ruined the vision in her other eye.
>>>
>>>>> Martinez cannot see anything. She cannot even detect light.
>>>
>>>>> In fact, she cannot remember ever seeing anything at all. She uses her
>>>>> active imagination instead.
>>>
>>>>> She is also a fast learner, which came in handy after spending her
>>>>> early
>>>>> childhood in a Mexican town that did not have a school for the blind
>>>>> or
>>>>> special
>>>>> education classes. The closest school she could have attended was a
>>>>> three-hour car ride away.
>>>
>>>>> So, she stayed home and never learned to read or write in Spanish,
>> English
>>>>> or Braille until the family moved to Moline. She began her formal
>>>>> education at the
>>>>> age of 10.
>>>
>>>>> Martinez caught up eventually, blossoming even more when she reached
>>>>> Moline High School and met her one-on-one education aide, Pam
>>>>> McDermott.
>>>>> The two spent
>>>>> every school day together, starting when Martinez was 15, and they
>> remain
>>>>> very close.
>>>
>>>>> McDermott spent a lot of time talking to Martinez, describing
>>>>> situations
>>>>> and reading her books about the blind-and-deaf pioneer Helen Keller
>>>>> and
>>>>> other people
>>>>> who overcame life's challenges.
>>>
>>>>> Martinez's mother does not speak English. Neither did her late father.
>>>
>>>>> McDermott found herself explaining so many unexpected things to the
>> quiet,
>>>>> shy teenager - such as what flirting is and how some people have
>> different
>>>>> skin
>>>>> colors. She hated to be the one to tell her, but the subject came up
>>>>> at
>>>>> school.
>>>
>>>>> Martinez began to dream about her future, but she faced people who
>>>>> told
>>>>> her, "You can't do that. You're blind. There's no way," she said.
>>>
>>>>> "Kids would not come near me," Martinez said. "I was afraid to talk or
>> do
>>>>> anything. But I don't give up."
>>>
>>>>> McDermott's influence helped open a whole new world of possibilities
>>>>> for
>>>>> her, Martinez said.
>>>
>>>>> She learned to play piano. She moved away to take life-skills classes
>> for
>>>>> the blind. She took community college classes.
>>>
>>>>> She dreamed about becoming a psychologist.
>>>
>>>>> Eventually her interest turned to cooking. She figured it might be a
>>>>> little like surgery. Why not give it a try?
>>>
>>>>> Martinez knew she would have to work harder than most to
>>>
>>>>> convince people that she could work as a chef. And she was up to the
>>>>> challenge.
>>>
>>>>> "I don't give up," she said.
>>>
>>>>> Culinary school brings challenges
>>>
>>>>> Martinez applied to the Le Cordon Bleu Culinary School in Chicago, an
>>>>> open-enrollment institution where most people are accepted as students
>> but
>>>>> not everyone
>>>>> graduates from the program, said Marshall Shafkowitz, the school's
>>>>> vice
>>>>> president of academic affairs and student services. The curriculum is
>>>>> tough.
>>>
>>>>> So was Shafkowitz, who admits he was "the biggest skeptic" when it
>>>>> came
>> to
>>>>> considering how a blind student could succeed at Le Cordon Bleu. The
>>>>> school had
>>>>> never enrolled a visually impaired student before Martinez, he said.
>>>
>>>>> Initially, he was concerned how her presence in the classroom might
>> impact
>>>>> the other students' learning. Then he worried about how the teachers
>> could
>>>>> present
>>>>> the same curriculum, without lowering their standards, but do so in a
>> way
>>>>> that would accommodate her.
>>>
>>>>> He did not know whether she could handle the fast-paced environment of
>>>>> working in a commercial kitchen, which is so much different than
>>>>> cooking
>>>>> at home.
>>>
>>>>> "It's a faster pace, with bigger knives and a lot more fire," he said.
>>>
>>>>> After watching Martinez at school and witnessing her "drive and
>>>>> desire"
>> to
>>>>> become a chef, Shafkowitz said he was amazed. He said her heightened
>> focus
>>>>> via
>>>>> the other senses, in the absence of sight, is her "superpower."
>>>
>>>>> "Her sense of touch is amazing," he said. "The only way I can describe
>> it
>>>>> is the touch that a surgeon has when they're working on your organs.
>>>>> She
>>>>> just
>>>>> has that delicate way with a knife."
>>>
>>>>> "She's not going to let anything hold her back," he added. "I think
>> that's
>>>>> 90 percent of who Laura is. Nobody's going to tell her no."
>>>
>>>>> The school hired an aide to help her get around. She labeled things in
>>>>> Braille.
>>>
>>>>> Mostly, though, she learned by using her hands to feel everything -
>>>>> especially the food she was preparing and cooking. She uses her sense
>>>>> of
>>>>> smell to figure
>>>>> out which spices to use. She uses both senses to determine whether
>>>>> meat
>>>>> and other dishes are done.
>>>
>>>>> Her favorite culinary class was the one in which she learned how to
>> debone
>>>>> chicken and take the fat off beef before cutting it into chunks and
>>>>> feeding it
>>>>> into a grinder. The teacher asked everyone to close their eyes and
>>>>> feel
>>>>> the joints and bones, the meat and the fat. That's how they learned
>> where
>>>>> and what
>>>>> to cut, Martinez said.
>>>
>>>>> "Fat feels different. It feels slippery, kind of like Jell-O," she
>>>>> said.
>>>>> "I focus on the smell, sound and the feel."
>>>
>>>>> An article about the school's first blind student was published in the
>>>>> Chicago Tribune during December, which inspired the "CBS Evening News"
>> to
>>>>> feature
>>>>> her on national television. During the filming of that segment, CBS
>>>>> brought along internationally famous chef Charlie Trotter.
>>>
>>>>> They hoped he would observe Martinez in the kitchen and maybe give her
>>>>> some advice.
>>>
>>>>> What he ended up giving her was a job offer: to work as a chef at his
>>>>> exclusive Charlie Trotter's restaurant in Chicago. No one expected
>>>>> that,
>>>>> least of
>>>>> all Martinez.
>>>
>>>>> "It's a big honor for me," she said. "It's very exclusive."
>>>
>>>>> Rochelle Smith Trotter, a spokeswoman for the Charlie Trotter Corp.,
>> said
>>>>> Chef Trotter was very taken by Martinez's
>>>
>>>>> passion for food and her strong determination - "two attributes which
>>>>> he
>>>>> utilizes to evaluate any potential team member," she said.
>>>
>>>>> Martinez graduated Feb. 11 from Le Cordon Bleu. A week later, she
>>>>> began
>>>>> working at Trotter's, where she is familiarizing herself with the
>> kitchen
>>>>> and the
>>>>> restaurant's French-contemporary gourmet cuisine.
>>>
>>>>> "We use very expensive herbs from all over the world," she said,
>> sniffing
>>>>> assorted spices in plastic containers at her childhood home in Moline.
>>>
>>>>> She kept picking up the spices and putting them down, hunting for just
>> the
>>>>> right one to season the sauce for her lasagna.
>>>
>>>>> "Where's the salt?" she asked.
>>>
>>>>> Still dreaming
>>>
>>>>> Reaching her arms out in front of her, feeling for walls or other
>>>>> obstacles she might bump into, Martinez moves around the kitchen in
>>>>> Moline. She is lost
>>>>> because her family recently remodeled.
>>>
>>>>> "Where is the trash can?" she asks.
>>>
>>>>> She feels around until she finds the sink to wash her hands, which she
>>>>> does repeatedly. She needs to stay cleaner than a sighted person, she
>>>>> says, for food
>>>>> safety and sanitation reasons. That is because she touches the food
>>>>> that
>>>>> she cooks a lot.
>>>
>>>>> Sometimes she browses cookbooks written in Braille or recorded on CD,
>> but
>>>>> she likes to make up her own dishes or give her own special twist to
>>>>> an
>>>>> old favorite.
>>>>> For example, she added grated jalapeno pepper to her lasagna, just to
>> give
>>>>> it some kick, she said.
>>>
>>>>> She imagines herself someday opening a restaurant in Miami, offering a
>> mix
>>>>> of French, Italian, Mexican and Asian cuisines. She would call the
>>>>> place
>>>>> La Diosa,
>>>>> which, she said, is Spanish for "The Goddess."
>>>
>>>>> To those who might scoff at the idea, she says, "I'm not giving up."
>>>
>>>>> Skeptics don't discourage her. They just "give me the energy to
>>>>> fight,"
>>>>> she added.
>>>
>>>>> "I just say, 'I have to work harder to show you that I can.' "
>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 1:42 PM
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] canes and increasing sensation of blindness
>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>>>> I use my cane while holding someone's arm all the time. However, I do
>>>>>> not consider it "sighted guide" so much as keeping with my friend who
>>>>>> knows the way...especially since the person who usually does this
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> me is my legally blind boyfriend. I hold his arm for balance
>>>>>> primarily, and to keep track of where he is, as I have no peripheral
>>>>>> vision. As we walk, he might point things out to me that I would miss
>>>>>> with my cane no matter what (the mailboxes that stick out at
>>>>>> head-height, the wet branches in front of my face, etcetra). I use my
>>>>>> cane so he can concentrate on where we are going and things in front
>>>>>> of us. I find the curbs and steps on my own, and sometimes if the
>>>>>> light is too low, I find curbs and such for the both of us, as he is
>>>>>> not as good with the cane (lack of practice!).
>>>
>>>>>> I find that if I take someone's arm, I am far less likely to learn
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> route. I have done entire routes on someone's arm that, looking back,
>>>>>> I couldn't tell you the first thing. This is partly because of my
>>>>>> poor
>>>>>> memory, but also because when I hold someone's arm, unless I'm in
>>>>>> charge of navigation (which does occur sometimes), I let that work
>>>>>> go,
>>>>>> and concentrate more on balance, what my cane is finding, and sounds.
>>>>>> I can enjoy myself a bit better this way.
>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I think holding someone's arm and using a cane at the
>>>>>> same
>>>>>> time is perfectly fine. That's just my opinion, so feel free to shoot
>>>>>> me down, but that won't stop me from doing it myself! I don't like to
>>>>>> put all the responsibility on the other person, no matter how good a
>>>>>> guide they are...though there is one exception. My O&M instructor
>>>>>> would do sighted guide with me to get quickly to a location, and my
>>>>>> cane just got in his way, and he was very good at guiding (he better
>>>>>> be, since he teaches other people how to be sighted guides, too!), so
>>>>>> I allow my cane to remain at my side, ready to pull out if I should
>>>>>> need it, but I put my trust in him.
>>>
>>>>>> ~Jewel
>>>
>>>>>> On 5/3/10, clinton waterbury <clinton.waterbury at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> As far as the cane issue goes, when I was about three years of age,
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> started learning how to use the cane.
>>>
>>>>>>> The only problem was that I would flat out refuse to use it until
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> time I
>>>>>>> was about five.
>>>
>>>>>>> The travel instructor finally said "Ok, you don't want to use it?
>> I'll
>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>> it from you."
>>>
>>>>>>> At that point, I tried and faled miserably to walk around without
>>>>>>> it!
>>>
>>>>>>> At the day's end, I did get the cane back, and have been using it
>>>>>>> ever
>>>>>>> since.
>>>>>>> On May 2, 2010, at 4:49 PM, Gerardo Corripio wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi guys: I'm curious as to is it fine to use a cane while going
>> sighted
>>>>>>>> guide with someone? for instance suppose the person whom I'm going
>> with
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> never done sighted guide with a blind person, thus doesn't know to
>>>>>>>> alert
>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>> of steps and the like. So I was thinking that if this technique is
>> fine
>>>>>>>> to
>>>
>>>>>>>> use it can serve two purposes:
>>>>>>>> 1.-Be able to go along sighted guide but at the same time being
>>>>>>>> able
>> to
>>>>>>>> oneself find and sort obstacles the sighted person might not have
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> mind
>>>
>>>>>>>> to let us know.
>>>>>>>> 2.-Be able to start mapping in our minds the route following, thus
>> make
>>>>>>>> it
>>>
>>>>>>>> easier to get to know the route by ourselves.
>>>>>>>> Also I've got another subject on my mind, thus sending in the same
>>>>>>>> email:
>>>>>>>> Is
>>>>>>>> it normal that when using a cane I have conflict in using it?
>>>>>>>> though
>> I
>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>> the cane is how we get around by ourselves thanks to a bad
>>>>>>>> experience
>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>> studying for a diploma in Humanistic Therapy some years ago in that
>>>>>>>> when I
>>>
>>>>>>>> wanted to use the cane again after some years of having it dusting,
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> held
>>>
>>>>>>>> it in my hand but wasn't able to use it at ease because memories of
>> the
>>>>>>>> experience came flooding back. fortunately I've been able to work
>> them
>>>>>>>> out
>>>
>>>>>>>> but am curious as to know if this has happened to you guys? It's a
>>>>>>>> conflict
>>>>>>>> because for one I'm aware that the cane makes us unique as blind
>> people
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> lets us move around by ourselves but also because here in Mexico
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>
>>>>>>>> aren't viewed as equals in some respects, thus when using the cane
>>>>>>>> gives
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> the feeling that lets blindness show even more, making the sighted
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> feel ill at ease; speaking from experience in another country when
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the US you guys don't have to cope with these things because of how
>>>>>>>> advanced
>>>>>>>> you guys are in the work you've done all these years. some day I
>>>>>>>> hope
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> able to be like you guys and really live by your standards, thus
>> hoping
>>>>>>>> these questions bring on a good discussion from which more than one
>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>> learn something new and enrich the topic of appreciating our roots
>>>>>>>> brought
>>>
>>>>>>>> on recently.
>>>>>>>> Gerardo
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>> gmail.com
>>>
>>>
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