[nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment

Sun Jun 19 17:32:52 UTC 2011

Jorge,
  I admit our current system is *not* fool proof.  A non-member can
come to national convention, pay the dues, register to vote, and
influence the election.  But, in a funny way, I'd rather have that
kind of non-member, who is willing to put in the week of time, make
the illegal vote over the non-member you can just give $5 to so they
can register and become a member online.
  Just my thoughts,
Kirt

On 6/19/11, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
>     The vast majority of our local chapters and affiliates conduct fare
> elections without resorting to junk like this. Angela Wolfe cautioned NABS
> on the use of cards in 2009. I know because I was there and have the
> recording of her remarks. It's on the NABS Web Site for all to hear. Every
> time I've heard a card/ballot system of this kind tried it does nothing but
> slow down the election process and make the procedure cumbersome and more of
> a hassle than need be. If you want your elections to run more smoothly get
> rid of the cards and use the good old voice vote system like our other
> affiliates use. There's little if any concern about individuals voting when
> they shouldn't. Stick with what works and quit trying to reinvent the wheel.
>
>     Our national constitution got us this far so why monkey with something
> that works and has proven its weight in gold? You have more important things
> to do than to implement ridiculous election procedures and monkeying with
> your constitution every time you turn around. JMO.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 10:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment
>
>
> Hi George,
> That's a good question. When people come to the NABS business meeting
> and  pay their dues, they are given a set of ballots. Only people who
> stop by the registration table and give our treasurer their $5 get
> ballots. I think this is a pretty good way of ensuring that only paid
> members vote.
> Sure, we can allow people to pay throughout the year and create a
> tracking system. I think that is a good idea. However, once they've
> paid, if they want to vote online, how do we prove they've paid
> beforehand?
> It might work if people pay their $5 online right before the election.
> But even then, I worry about hackers and other fancy computer gimmicks
> that might game the system.
> Arielle
>
> On 6/19/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Arielle:
>> With all due respect,
>> how would we be able to identify current members without any problem?
>>
>> That is to say,
>> do we keep some kind of database of who is *currently* on NABS?
>> The reason I'm asking is because I don't see how NABS keeps track of
>> current
>> membership to begin with,  let alone new members.
>>
>> Are you saying you're opposed to such an amendment because it would mean
>> creating a tracking system for the entire membership?
>>
>> And if so, wouldn't this help NABS in the long run?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jorge
>>
>>
>> On Jun 19, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>
>>> Excellent point, Kurt. I have heard of cases at state conventions
>>> where candidates brought all  their friends who were not NFB members
>>> on the day of the election to pay their dues and vote in person. Sure,
>>> this could happen at a national convention, but it seems less likely,
>>> and much more likely if absentee voting were allowed. The problem
>>> could be minimized by requiring payment of dues a month or so in
>>> advance of the election. But even then, how could we verify payment
>>> status virtually? The U.S. government allows mail-in voting, but in
>>> that case candidates are clearly identified in advance. In short, even
>>> if this amendment were permissible and philosophically desirable, our
>>> election procedures, from nomination of candidates to membership
>>> verification, would have to be radically modified. I'm not opposed to
>>> change, but I question whether the dramatic investment of effort
>>> required is worth the benefit of allowing a few more people to vote.
>>> As Darian emphasized, there are many, many other ways we can be using
>>> our energy and exercising our membership rights.
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 6/18/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jorge,
>>>>  You're putting this out in the open for public scrutiny so I'm going
>>>> to be honest.  I really, really don't like the idea-it opens up all
>>>> sorts of cans of worms that don't seem right to me.  Consider the
>>>> following.
>>>>  We probably won't know all the candidates in the election *until*
>>>> the actual business meeting.  There could be someone who, for whatever
>>>> reason, hasn't announced their candidacy for office on the list.  I
>>>> think it's only fair that anyone who's even considering voting in the
>>>> election knows who all candidates are and has the opportunity to
>>>> listen to each introduction speech (even if it's only 30 seconds
>>>> long), before they cast their ballot.  That's only fair to all the
>>>> candidates involved.  I would consider supporting an idea that allows
>>>> those due-paying members in virtual attendance (through an official
>>>> NABS skype call or the like) the opportunity to vote.  Beyond that, I
>>>> don't think you have much of a case.
>>>>  Also, think about this.  Let's say you, hypothetically, were running
>>>> for NABS president.  You get a bunch of your blind friends who aren't
>>>> going to convention, who may or may not want anything to do with the
>>>> Federation, and have them pay $5 so they're voting members.  I'm not
>>>> saying you'd do such a thing, I'm just saying you're leaving that kind
>>>> of possibility open.  No matter how secure the voting method is, that
>>>> makes this something that could happen.  Do other organizations open
>>>> that door?  Sure.  Should we?  I say no.
>>>>  But the spirit behind the idea isn't bad.  I think, personally, if
>>>> we could ensure some sort of secure method for virtual attendance at
>>>> the meeting for those due-paying members who can't make convention,
>>>> I'd be all for allowing them to vote.  Maybe set up a shoutcast server
>>>> streaming the meeting, and only give the password to those due-paying
>>>> members who request it?  Make a conference call and only give the
>>>> calling info/access code for those due-paying members who ask for it?
>>>> If we instituted a system like that, I don't see why we couldn't allow
>>>> that sort of absentee voting, but only for those who are in virtual
>>>> attendance at the NABS business meeting and not for anyone else.  Am I
>>>> making any sense?  Is that a possibility?
>>>>  All the best,
>>>> Kirt
>>>>
>>>> On 6/18/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Arielle:
>>>>> Not exactly,
>>>>> I'm going to continue to edit the amendment myself and should be able
>>>>> to
>>>>> submit it before July second.
>>>>> I posted this version so that people could see my amendment in light of
>>>>> the
>>>>> entire section.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 18, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>> Is this the final version you would like read at the NABS meeting this
>>>>>> year? Or, would you like to wait until 2012 when you will be at
>>>>>> convention yourself and can present and defend it?
>>>>>> If you want it read in 2011 and you will not be at convention, you
>>>>>> will need to find someone else who will be there to read and defend
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Joseph C. Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> George,
>>>>>>> I hate to be a killjoy on you, but you're probably wasting your time
>>>>>>> with this. The organization isn't going to change this particular
>>>>>>> policy, no matter how many people would like to see it happen. For
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> record, I'm with you on this one, but I'm also no longer a
>>>>>>> federationest
>>>>>>> and haven't been for some years now. Too many differences of opinion.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> "All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E. P. Box
>>>>>>> Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
>
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