[nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
Chris Nusbaum
dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
Tue May 31 22:57:16 UTC 2011
I like human voices, too, but sometimes you have to get as close
to a human voice that you can without an actual human voice. RFB
only has so many volunteers, and I agree that reading should be
fun, that's why I like Braille and my BrailleNote. However, I
use a screen reader and other TTS technology for the stuff I
can't get in Braille. The more tools we have in our toolbox, the
better, in my opinion.
Chris
"A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto)
--- Sent from my BrailleNote
----- Original Message -----
From: <bookwormahb at earthlink.net
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:21:22 -0400
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Steve,
Well said and that is my concern too. All this technology like
computers and
braille displays are a privelege students take for granted.
Those unemployed
blind people cannot afford such luxuries. Remember any
technology you got
was probably purchased for you as a student by rehab. But
technology
doesn't last forever. So while you're unemployed seeking work
for five or
ten years, your technology will break and that wonderful tech
savy braille
display you had with your notetaker isn't there anymore.
Also consider those on low incomes without computers or those
seniors who
can't understand technology or the multiple disabled students
who have
trouble with technology. I have trouble with synthesized speech.
I do NOt,
Not find sitting and listening to a computer enjoyable at all. I
find it
very tiring. I want reading to be pleasurable and learn
something. IThat
is why I like NLS books and what was RFB books due to the human
voice.
Reading should be fun and for pleasure. If I have to listen to a
robot,
that is not fun at all.
So if ebook readers existed, I'd personally not want to use them
if I had to
use jaws or synthesized speech. I want a human voice.
Ashley
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 4:44 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Kirt,
Well, I tried to cover this before but perhaps didn't do it well
enough.
Saying that the availability of novels is probably fairly
straight-forward
is not the same
as saying that we already have access to them. In some cases we
do, through
BLIO, for example. However, I still believe that discarding the
old
infrastructures that have been built up over many years is a bit
premature
until we get a better sense of where electronic texts and their
accessability is truly
going. I don't doubt the commitment of BLIO to accessibility,
but I do
think that we can't say at this point how well the general market
will
support BLIO and
that's important for it to work. It will take some time for many
of us to
get used to reading with a synthesized voice, even if it is
pretty good.
There are also
many for whom technology is still a challenge. These things will
probably
change over time, but they are still true barriers today and will
be so for
a while yet.
Electronic texts probably will have an impact on BookShare over
time. Also,
we are about the only organization of blind people who ever
questions
whether
we need a given service, so even if we were to all agree that it
is time to
abandon BookShare and buy e-texts, there will be others who wil
oppose that.
Still, my contention is simply that we need to see better how the
electronic
text market matures and how accessibility fairs before advocating
big
changes in
how we get books. Examining whether we are receiving
preferential treatment
is always a good thing to do in my opinion, and I hope we're
honest enough
with ourselves to continue this kind of self-examination. At the
same time,
we have to be careful to not trade a service we have for promises
of what
will be,
and we also need to be careful not to sell out those of us who
are less
technical or on lower incomes.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Wed, 25 May 2011 13:24:50 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
Steve,
One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access
to
novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do
we
still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning
ally
for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of
delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital
ebook
lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read
our
novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them
honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from
bookshare
or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to
me,
at least with books that aren't textbooks.
Warmly,
Kirt
On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
Steve,
Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too
optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math
notation has always been a problem with electronic braille,
hasn't it?
I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its
annoyances,
will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new
inovation
making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics
with
the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I
think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even
comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so
we'll
probably be grappling with that issue for a long time,
regardless of
what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or
science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with
literary braille.
I see your point about brand names. But when one of those
brands is
owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable
about
that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of
course
(I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but
it
makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and
braille
access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't
disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for
accessibility so
far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark.
Warmly,
Kirt
On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
Kirt,
As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are
some things
happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us
access to a
novel, for
example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We
need
access
to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream
titles, so
I
am
not suggesting that this isn't important.
There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and
math
notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed.
This may
not
be that
important for leisure reading, but it is very important in
textbooks.
Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally
will
concentrate on making
the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final
product
by
merging their special representation of drawings with the text
that is
already
available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers
to
create
accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just
taking the
same text
and making it available in another format.
My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the
tools you
name
are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know
what
sort
of
availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time.
The
industry
is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if
some new
way
of
displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used
is hard
to
make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have
some
hope,
but
rather that we need to base those services we decide we no
longer need
on
what is there now and not on what we think will be the case
eventually.
In
1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure,
to make
their
Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our
governor
yesterday
released statements using PDF documents that were not
accessible. I
would
never have thought in 1997 that there would still be
inaccessible PDF's
in
2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where
technology goes.
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
Steve and Mike,
You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too
hard.
But are my statements about braille access to textbooks
premature?
Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader
and
working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an
ebook
reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not
become
more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems
a bit
silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys
know
more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving
fast
towards access to mainstream books in braille.
Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to
read
electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to
read a
bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those
expensive
braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same
technology
setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or
coursesmart or
(I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to
pay the
same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have
the
money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very
least, better manage our precious SSI.
Just my thoughts,
Kirt
On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner <liziswhatis at hotmail.com> wrote:
TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with
BookShare
to
make their books available and accessible. I do think that
quality of
BKS
books has improved over the years.
Liz Bottner
Guiding Eyes Graduate Council
GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531
e-mail:
liziswhatis at hotmail.com
Visit my LiveJournal:
http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/lizbot
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Sally Thomas
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce
accessible
textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process
need to
translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and
more
books
are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it
would
be
foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility
first
when
designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of
accessible
textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12
textbooks
accessible.
Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in
the
hands
of
blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a
dedicated
process for producing quality braille.
Sally Thomas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the
point
where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or
RFB&D
audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll
be too
long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your
notetaker
or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out
there, it
just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and
that
trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be
too long
until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we
use to
read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical
as
using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far
off),
I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last
few
posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore
to get
ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books
are
probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library
isn't
as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every
time I
download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just
like
every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
getting them on a silver platter
I'm done now,
Kirt
On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
Julie,
More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of
going to
libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read
mainstream
ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers
and
probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a
tremendous
rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a
library
like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille
book
we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people
have
to
buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a
worthwhile
idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar
bookstores so
we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want
to
get
an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone
else.
And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already
here
and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have
options
(again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone
else
and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy,
I
honestly don't know what is.
I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about
this-please
don't take my passion as a personal attack.
With respect,
Kirt
On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
Well said. I agree with those statements.
I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted
people do
when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or
they
go
to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on
Amazon
and
order hard copy books.
We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.
No,
not
many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just
embossed
by
the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access
to
books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get
them.
I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't
mean
that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download
books
just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the
same
choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If
we
don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then
that
is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away
from
us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going
to
switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No.
Just
us. That just doesn't seem right to me.
I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things,
but
I
find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my
rambles.
On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to
me,
and
many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple
products,
that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire
equal
access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR,
fundamental
problem with this article:
":
For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
visually
impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply
cannot
afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of
all
of
the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of
those
who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove
of
free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org
or
NLS
up to these unfortunates?"
Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at
their
disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I
immediately
delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that
many
users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I
would
not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards
a
model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and
keeping.
Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for
books
as
the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
sighted individuals.
Brice
On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Guys:
I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I
wanted
to get your thoughts.
The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the
rise
of
ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we
should
try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and
Apple's
Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org
and
the NLS library service should go away.
Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the
future?
Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and
braille
literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know
(someone
correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille
display
either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the
books
in
BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display
or
a
notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon
Kindle
and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those
voices
for
reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them
for
reading.
What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as
many
people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app
for
the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare
went
away completely.
hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for
discussion
purposes.
Kerri
Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
by Josh de Lioncourt
A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter
that
rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple
of
years. In essence, the question was this: "We have
BookShare.org,
the
National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why
should
we
care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks,
Kindle,
Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several
people
with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one.
If
one
digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the
visually
impaired community.
Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at
just
a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to
this
question.
.In general, books released in printed form are now
simultaneously
available in digital formats. This provides readers and
students
with
access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at
the
same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the
case
with
publications offered through many of the resources aimed at
providing
materials in accessible formats.
.Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability
from
their users before they are able to gain access to the content
provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through
these
hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
.Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise
undesirable
or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle
provide
access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
including mobile phones.
.Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org),
charge
a
recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume
large
number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can
prove
far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
.Many books are never made available in accessible formats
through
these
bodies.
This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why
a
visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book
platform,
but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No
one
solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always
kept
in
mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
There is a far more important issue that this subject raises,
however.
It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually
impaired
people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
treatment?"
Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a
question.
Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were
otherwise
inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other
disabilities
in
a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the
availability
and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen
sharply.
Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the
wealth
of
information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline
of
library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001,
93%
of
college students felt it made more sense to obtain the
information
they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
The majority of information online is, of course, far more
accessible
than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past.
Few
technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact
on
the
quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will
find
none who would argue that point.
With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the
decline
of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as
well.
Ask
yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who
regularly,
or
exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read.
The
answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
purchase books to read, just like any other form of
entertainment
media such as music or movies.
While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in
years
passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks,
Inkling,
and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content
to
those
with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the
only,
solution for some users today, we should be actively moving
toward
a
future of equal access with our sighted peers.
It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually
impaired
community desire equal access without equal responsibility,
especially
when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired
community,
purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone
else?
Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional
text
on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as
we
pay
for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local
community
college?
For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
visually
impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply
cannot
afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels,
and
I'm
sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would
love
a
treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we
open
BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
government agencies, on access technology which is less capable
than
mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is
available
in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired
users
to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or
music.
How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch,
which
provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email,
and
tens
of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting
at
just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod
touch
can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more
storage,
and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users
get
from
the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions
ultimately
be better spent compensating the authors of useful or
entertaining
books for their hard work?
Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired
community
wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like
Amazon
for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet
balks
at
the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of
our
printed materials handed over for free?
We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by
extension
equal
opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves
on
equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
I know which outcome I'm hoping for.
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smi
th319%40gma
il.com
--
Brice Smith
North Carolina State University, Communication - Public
Relations
Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar
%40gmail.co
m
--
Julie McG
Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in
Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of
Guiding
Eyes for the Blind
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info
for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz
ydude%40gma
il.com
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%
40gmail.com
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhat
is%40hotmai
l.com
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz
ydude%40gmail.com
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jac
obson%40visi.com
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz
ydude%40gmail.com
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jac
obson%40visi.com
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma
hb%40earthlink.net
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu
sbaum%40gmail.com
More information about the NABS-L
mailing list