[nabs-l] Grad School

Deb Mendelsohn deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com
Sun Jun 10 17:24:49 UTC 2012


R there any grad students in NAB?
I'm attending UA in Spring 4 MLS.  R any of u going 2 Dallas?
Deb

Deb Cell (520) 225-8244
On Jun 10, 2012 10:17 AM, "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
wrote:

> Wow!
> You'll be moving to Mr Lewis's headquarters.
> Speaking of which, I'm about to start a new thread about that!
> Blessings, Joshua
>
> On 6/10/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> > My new boyfriend is from Georgia, so yeah, I have a good idea of
> > whuaft kind of foods he likes, sort of. :)
> > Beth
> >
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:49:37 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> >
> > Beth, the blind cooks list can provide you with the info you
> > need, to
> > cook Southern food.
> > Where is your new boyfriend from?
> > Thanks, Joshua
> >
> > On 6/10/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> >  First off, my boyfriend can't go to an independent living center
> >  out of state.  It took that to get me to learn daily living
> >  skills.  I live in my own, but I hate to live for two people.
> >  You've got great points, Brandon.  My boyfriend will have to do
> >  daily living trainning, maybe I can find a daily living skills
> >  teacher in his state that can help.  I tried learning from a
> >  daily living skills teacher, but the teachers I've worked with
> >  never really told my parents they had to be patient.  HE's lucky
> >  his girlfriend is blind and can cook just as good as anyone.
> >  Btw, I made a casserole one day, and it's great that I did.  If
> > I
> >  have to move out with my boyffriend, I'll have to learn and
> > teach
> >  myself how to make deviled eggs and southern fried chicken, some
> >  of his favorites.  But I'll be that patient with him and help
> > him
> >  get on his feet.  I'll probably have to learn something, but I
> >  think living in the bay area won't be possible.  I have to live
> >  where he is so that his heart doesn't get damaged or whuaftever.
> >  I think we're better than the people at Goodwill, and .. oh
> >  yeah, hopefully, we get good furniture from a furniture resale
> >  store unlike Goodwill.
> >  Beth
> >
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >  Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700
> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> >
> >  Hello Beth,
> >  let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have
> >  enough
> >  reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish.
> >  If you've
> >  read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst.
> >  They shelter
> >  you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor
> >  definitely
> >  has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to
> >  school and get
> >  that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my
> > graduation!
> >  If money
> >  is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can
> > fully
> >  cover the
> >  cost of school, minus housing and food.
> >  Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people
> > that
> >  I know
> >  about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business
> >  section and I
> >  was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and
> >  investing. I
> >  don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to
> >  really make
> >  something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one
> >  of those
> >  things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking
> >  and
> >  socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about
> >  how to find
> >  banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how
> >  to budget
> >  effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food
> >  and clothing,
> >  and no one needs any help on running a family in school.
> >  My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the
> >  students that
> >  come to her class have never had a communication class in their
> >  life, yet
> >  100% of her students have had to communicate.
> >  We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life
> >  is I
> >  guess...?
> >  Personally I've found that those who have the most power over
> >  people in this
> >  world are those with money and those with exceptional
> >  communication skills.
> >  I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and
> > go
> >  to
> >  Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the
> >  disability
> >  center is the best in the west. They also give oober
> > scholarships
> >  to those
> >  students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand
> >  in
> >  scholarships*.
> >  Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one
> >  can get
> >  renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every
> >  part of
> >  school, except for $47 by just being on SSI.
> >  Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking
> >  problem as we
> >  are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's
> >  on the
> >  radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but
> > besides
> >  that, the
> >  Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any
> >  general college
> >  that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies.
> >  If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY,
> >  because not
> >  only is the blindness support so great, but public
> > transportation
> >  is the
> >  best in the nation for both those places.
> >  But enough on me pushing SF...!
> >  Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose
> >  of Daily
> >  living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the
> >  "Vista
> >  Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become
> >  independent. I
> >  love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move
> >  out on my
> >  own when I was 18.
> >  I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and
> > Justin
> >  was saying
> >  something about attending a program that also teaches living
> >  skills. But my
> >  teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those
> >  who go
> >  above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they
> >  were taught
> >  on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible.
> >  They expect
> >  everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones
> >  who
> >  generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth,
> >  if I were
> >  you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting
> >  him know
> >  that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take
> >  care of
> >  himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but
> > you
> >  can let
> >  him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than
> >  it's time
> >  to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want
> > to
> >  be sent to
> >  one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first
> >  hand why he
> >  must learn living skills in order to be free.
> >  I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until
> >  after your
> >  Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life
> > to
> >  live and
> >  you should not be forced to live for two people which you would
> >  be doing if
> >  you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now.
> >
> >  I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to
> >  prom with a
> >  girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a
> >  girlfriend till my
> >  last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later.
> >  I didn't
> >  have another till a little over a year after that. It was with
> >  that second
> >  girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the
> >  worst things
> >  since the invention of eyes.
> >  If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear
> >  yourself think,
> >  let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed
> >  together on
> >  all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how
> >  to dance by
> >  your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell.
> >  The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but
> > the
> >  dance
> >  itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the
> >  romantic part,
> >  you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the
> > Blue
> >  Danube at
> >  the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have
> >  a dance to
> >  call themselves a dance?
> >  anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when
> >  you're
> >  going through school than the social aspects. In college though,
> >  guys become
> >  much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just
> >  because they
> >  have lived and learned much more through their life.
> >  Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature
> >  enough in
> >  some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature
> >  when it came
> >  to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should
> > never
> >  expect
> >  people to change. So part of my problem about having a small
> >  social life is
> >  that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still
> >  much to
> >  immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work.
> >  But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm
> >  not socially
> >  mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the
> >  biggest
> >  problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves
> >  off as good
> >  relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was
> > only
> >  blind this
> >  would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture,
> >  being able
> >  to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one
> >  wants to
> >  make it in anything other than strictly working in something
> > like
> >  the NFB or
> >  Goodwill.
> >  We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people
> >  think and
> >  how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted
> >  people. Once
> >  we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're
> >  blind, we
> >  should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we
> >  are blind.
> >  Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they
> >  will look no
> >  farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being
> >  disabled is
> >  repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do
> >  anything in
> >  the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a
> >  sighted person
> >  first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one
> >  is able to
> >  make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not
> >  repulsive and
> >  weird.
> >  Thank you,
> >
> >  Brandon Keith Biggs
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Beth
> >  Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM
> >  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> >
> >  Great points, Brandon.  As someone who is both blind and
> > mentally
> >  ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird.  I've
> > been
> >  called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he
> >  could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all
> >  kinds of emotional attack and abuse.  Due to blindness, I was
> >  told by the docs I'd be a vegetable.  Huh?  My dad says I'm a
> >  genius.  I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133,
> >  superior without all the visual battery of tests.  But then
> >  again, IQ isn't everything.  I live in Denver, alone, with no
> >  roommate to pander to my every need.  I probably should say that
> >  with the right support and good friends around me, I could
> >  thrive.  I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job,
> >  and get "normal" wages.  I could take care of children, my own
> >  children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens
> >  of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good
> >  days and bad days along the way.  My old cane teacher is a
> >  fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the
> >  rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are.  I could
> >  get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with
> > rapids
> >  that could not be handled by the rider.  One of the biggest
> >  "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages
> >  thing.  Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that
> >  blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people.
> >  My boyfriend doesn't know money.  I wonder if I can possibly
> >  teach him the basics of money management and budgeting.  I
> >  struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off
> > of,
> >  and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage
> >  fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport.  So I'm stuck
> >  paying for that.  My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep
> >  track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer
> > for
> >  all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's
> >  going to run the household and help me pay my bills too.  What
> > if
> >  I'm incapacitated for real this time?  I mean, like, Terry
> >  Shiavo?  How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare
> >  surrogate, going to make that decision?  My hope is that he
> > won't
> >  have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel
> >  can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff.
> > I
> >  was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with
> >  him a bit.  Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just
> >  makes me so sick.  I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a
> >  meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on
> >  Memorial Day.  He has the potential to do those things, and the
> >  weird part is that his parents are open to us having a
> >  relationship.  Most disabled people's parents, including but not
> >  limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer
> >  people.  Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live
> >  together successfully with all the right supports, and if we
> >  can't find jobs, so what?  We need family support to get by.
> > But
> >  I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to
> >  manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to
> >  my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason
> >  there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old
> >  mother.  Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have.
> >  My mother should not have to manage my money.  Yes, I'm not so
> >  good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like
> > how
> >  to go back and look at your payment history every time if you
> > get
> >  suspicious about a charge.  Like if the bills are on autopay,
> > you
> >  have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I
> >  may use such a cold term, are stealing your money.  I felt
> >  Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this
> >  month
> >  because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to
> > do,
> >  I can't afford a $70 internet bill.  That's just too much unless
> >  you're really living in low income housing.  I know a lot about
> >  disabled or low income housing.  Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to
> >  learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him.  Lots of times,
> >  blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the
> >  parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their
> >  flaws.  Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the
> >  same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made.  We
> > wait
> >  on him hand and foot ..."  And so on.  This creates a problem.
> >  Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot.  We can't
> >  necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca
> > Salt
> >  in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a
> > spoiled
> >  literary figure.  We can't be pandered or revered as Helen
> > Keller
> >  was by her family in her early years.  Unlike Jason, Helen was
> >  deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are
> >  ample thanks to technology.  With Helen Keller's time, there
> > were
> >  no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen.
> >  I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to
> > me--hence
> >  the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period.  Jobs
> >  and technology have risen while I was growing up.  It only seems
> >  like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long
> >  email.  Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much
> >  more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my
> >  dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me.  Ha ha.  But
> >  thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a
> > text
> >  message.  Imagine poor blind Beth texting!  It only seems like
> >  yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible
> >  phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my
> >  ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which
> >  is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my
> >  friends and I can receive texts from people.  I would hate to
> >  change my address, but I do that.  I will be in Denver for a
> > good
> >  while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I
> >  would hear my mother say.  When I get my ducks in a row, I plan
> >  to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job
> >  helping human trafficking victims.  Denver has a strong victim
> >  advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services
> > that
> >  may have that.  I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with
> >  human trafficking.  Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if
> >  there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it.  I'd
> >  like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but
> >  where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and
> > a
> >  good background in such matters?  I was never trafficked, but I
> >  have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or
> >  through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world.
> >  To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job
> >  helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social
> > work
> >  degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do.  I want to
> >  advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like,
> >  "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not
> > fit
> >  to do something because of mental deficiencies."  What sort of
> >  nonsensical statements these are!  DVR in Colorado doesn't seem
> >  to get it.  They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they
> >  don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more
> >  to me than anybody.  My brothers are taking college classes, and
> >  they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected.  But
> >  what will I do?  My parents will dictate who I will marry due to
> >  gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have
> >  because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people
> >  are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social
> >  workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me
> >  keep them with sighted supervision, and so on.  But going
> > through
> >  school is not easy.  Brandon, you said school is great, but you
> >  don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a
> >  small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom.
> >  That's the price I paid for being blind.  Nobody cared to offer
> >  me flowers on a date.  I didn't have the normal teenager things
> >  that every teenage girl dreams about.  If I have a daughter, I
> >  want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such
> > pride
> >  a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike.  My
> >  mother never got that opportunity with me.  She would help me
> >  into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the
> >  school.  My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and
> > summer
> >  jobs?  Out of the question.  I can't get a good experience if I
> >  am not allowed to work.  Titusville is a small town in Florida,
> >  and I and another man were the only blind people in it.  I being
> >  the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be
> > offered
> >  a job.  The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where
> > medical
> >  experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering
> >  degrees were preferred.  My dad can attest to the people he's
> >  interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough
> > blind
> >  computer engineers, except those in the underground geek
> > industry
> >  as I like to call it, to go around.  We also need to learn to
> >  communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so
> >  to speak.
> >  Ok, my rant is over.
> >  Beth
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >  Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700
> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> >
> >  Hello,
> >  I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm
> >  going to
> >  say...
> >  It's the educational system that many of these problems come
> > down
> >  to. We
> >  have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to
> > create
> >  a new
> >  style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about
> >  disabled
> >  students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask
> >  for
> >  accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad!
> >  Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted
> >  person, I would
> >  not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United
> >  States when
> >  going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get
> >  leniency on
> >  all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get
> >  free
> >  schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so
> >  many
> >  scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for
> >  accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends
> >  with your
> >  teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you
> >  are by
> >  nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to
> >  read your
> >  books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined,
> >  you're able
> >  to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for
> >  taking
> >  advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled
> >  and that's
> >  what you're expected to do!
> >  Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when
> > you
> >  get 100%
> >  on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people
> > think
> >  it's
> >  amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing,
> >  (Stereotypically)
> >  blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time
> > to
> >  do school
> >  work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and
> >  instructions
> >  because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem
> >  with your
> >  online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the
> >  web browser,
> >  state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors
> >  class at a
> >  community college and you have good grades and you've written
> > one
> >  of those
> >  inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get
> > the
> >  super
> >  arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!",
> >  you're able
> >  to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies
> >  like Global
> >  explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job
> >  programs
> >  like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community
> >  college or
> >  state college you're given a guide through the school because
> > you
> >  need a
> >  mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person.
> >  I should probably stop, but you get the idea...
> >  It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years
> >  of my life
> >  and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing
> >  parents and
> >  didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view
> >  of school,
> >  but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was
> >  just that
> >  either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped
> >  with the
> >  skills or technology that was keeping me from learning.
> >  There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's
> >  multiple  theory
> >  of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school,
> >  but thank
> >  goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone,
> >  they just
> >  need to know how they learn and learn that way!
> >  I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so
> >  I'll get off
> >  education.
> >  My point is that most blind people aren?셳 taught about all
> > the
> >  above things.
> >  I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings
> >  and my mom
> >  became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind
> >  person needs to
> >  know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years
> >  of your
> >  life there getting your music degree or dentist degree.
> >
> >  Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a
> >  tighter mold of
> >  what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of
> >  anyone.
> >  Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they
> >  don't need
> >  special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme
> >  cases of
> >  autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is
> >  put into
> >  that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane!
> >  It's like if
> >  Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people
> >  stuck him
> >  into special ed just because he can't talk!
> >  Where would cosmology be?
> >  Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their
> >  own way into
> >  sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled
> >  that are
> >  fighting for these rights.
> >
> >  I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird
> > it's
> >  not them
> >  that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're
> >  weird. It's
> >  like you thinking the person in front of you is going through
> >  time the same
> >  way you are!
> >
> >  Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason
> > and
> >  go for
> >  emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and
> >  that's why
> >  we have to assimilate into the sighted world.
> >  Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have
> >  probably not
> >  learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the
> >  sighted
> >  community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level
> >  jobs.
> >
> >  Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything
> >  other than
> >  blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this
> >  world likes to
> >  think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with
> >  the crowd.
> >  Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered
> >  weird, those who
> >  learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise
> >  above it are
> >  considered great.
> >  Thanks,
> >
> >  Brandon Keith Biggs
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Arielle Silverman
> >  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM
> >  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> >
> >  Hi Brandon,
> >  These are all good points. I like your statement about blind
> >  people
> >  who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I
> >  have
> >  met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description.
> >  The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what
> >  a
> >  person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective
> >  tests
> >  like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for
> >  environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities
> >  or
> >  knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and
> > teachers,
> >  or
> >  what skills they are or are not taught. There is research
> > showing
> >  that
> >  when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way,
> >  they
> >  tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a
> >  "self-fulfilling
> >  prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up
> >  "Pygmalian
> >  effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are
> >  smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids
> >  differently
> >  without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up
> >  performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too
> >  often
> >  happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about
> >  how
> >  disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in
> >  ways
> >  that make those assumptions come true.
> >  I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more
> >  productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was
> >  intrinsically
> >  interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were
> >  actually
> >  good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and
> >  mental
> >  abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task
> >  enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply
> >  too
> >  boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities
> >  have
> >  their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I
> >  have
> >  figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop
> > job,
> >  I
> >  would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at
> >  minimum
> >  wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my
> >  hands or
> >  using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just
> >  wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking
> >  and
> >  doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills
> >  instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at.
> >  Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is
> >  true
> >  that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the
> >  unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons
> > for
> >  unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that
> >  employers
> >  want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many
> >  fields,
> >  the entry-level position that people get at first to gain
> >  experience
> >  isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with
> >  programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your
> >  foot in
> >  the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For
> >  example,
> >  before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching,
> > which
> >  means you are working under someone else who might not use
> >  accessible
> >  materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without
> >  experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory
> >  doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within
> >  an
> >  accessible field, individual employers might use materials that
> >  aren't
> >  accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very
> >  accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or
> >  scripts
> >  that aren't accessible, this will limit job options.
> >  Arielle
> >
> >  On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >  wrote:
> >  Hello,
> >  It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like
> >  being mentally
> >  disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can
> >  not do. We
> >  also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like
> >  mentally
> >  disabled
> >  people really are mentally  disabled.
> >  *That's a mouthful!*
> >  I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under
> >  employed
> >  and
> >  jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of
> >  them. But I'm
> >  not a professional and I can only say from personal experience
> >  that many
> >  mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and
> >  often it's
> >  because they are babied and misunderstood  that they are
> >  pressured into
> >  doing jobs they aren?셳 good at.
> >
> >  I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will
> >  in the
> >  first
> >  place though when it's not that hard learning programming and
> >  it's pretty
> >  easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind
> >  person. If
> >  your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just
> >  take a
> >  class at their community college and change their job. I believe
> >  SSI is
> >  for
> >  college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back
> >  up when
> >  work
> >  isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure
> >  jobs if I
> >  go
> >  into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral
> >  issues, I'm not
> >  sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill.
> >  Thanks,
> >
> >  Brandon Keith Biggs
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Arielle Silverman
> >  Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM
> >  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> >
> >  Hi all,
> >  I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating
> >  items
> >  like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A
> >  customer
> >  boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably
> >  hurt
> >  them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very
> >  persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches
> >  nationally, we
> >  make it very clear that what we want is a change to national
> >  policy.
> >  Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll
> >  call her
> >  S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman
> >  with
> >  Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call
> >  her C).
> >  Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know
> >  both S
> >  and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation.
> >  Apparently C
> >  is employed by a program for people with intellectual
> >  disabilities
> >  similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S.
> >  told
> >  me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely
> >  menial
> >  job although I don't remember what that job was exactly.
> >  However, I
> >  don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived
> >  rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries.
> >  The
> >  program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even
> >  had
> >  independent access to the money she earned at her job.
> >  I don't think I can really judge whether people with
> >  disabilities like
> >  C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending
> >  their
> >  own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge
> >  how
> >  independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like
> >  C.
> >  would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and
> >  higher expectations should come with higher wages and more
> >  freedom.
> >  I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should
> >  be
> >  paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that
> >  blindness
> >  by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently
> >
>
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