[nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted societyatsocial gatherings

Sarah coastergirl92 at gmail.com
Wed Sep 19 17:32:08 UTC 2012


'm used to sighted people I've been around them my whole life.

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:04:55 -0700
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with 
sighted societyatsocial gatherings

Hello,
Unfortunately to change attitudes you need to be excepted.
Considering many blind folks are just novices at the rules of the 
sighted
world (Especially the congenitally blind), even years of lessons 
may not get
them to the level to where they would be distressed.
Also, lots of the stress is because sighted people themselves are 
unsure of
the rules themselves.  If someone purposely breaks a rule once or 
twice to
get what they want, it is seen as brave.  If they break the rules 
all the
time, it is seen as weird.  I totally believe men and women 
should learn the
social norms for men and women.  For example, men do not go 
around sitting in
the splits.  They save the splits for dance only.  Also, there 
are rules for
different body types.  I'm sure there are many generalities that 
will hold
true for many circumstance, and many of the rules will only be 
ways of
communicating different information.  For example, Guys should 
not wear very
tight, stretchy pants with a shorter shirt unless they want to 
convey how
big and...  muscular they are.
But frankly, again, most blind people once worked past their 
kinetic
oddities, will be much more excepted in the world.
For example, I'm trying really hard now to stop snapping my 
retainers,
because I guess it really creeps people out...  :(
Once people learn the rules, they will be able to label anything 
new that
pops up and work to remove the odd mannerism from their actions.
Thank you,

Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Workman
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 7:37 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with 
sighted societyat
social gatherings

Chris wrote,
Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules which 
our
sighted society has made.  If we don't know them and follow them, 
what does
that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird, 
different,
abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.

Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural, 
that they
are the product of sighted people simply aping one another, and 
that they
are arbitrary.  I believe that such unwritten rules often 
needlessly cause
huge amounts of anxiety, self-loathing, and anguish.

We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago, 
particularly around
the subject of so called "blindisms, and I put that term in 
quotes as a way
of acknowledging that it is pejorative.  I'm sure it could be 
found on line
by anyone who is interested.

Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people are 
accepted
and respected not simply to the extent that they can look and act 
like
sighted people, but on the grounds that they are human beings 
possessing
dignity and as equally worthy of respect as sighted people.  The 
message
shouldn't be, "hey, we can follow your rules, so you should 
accept us".
Instead, the message should be, "we, like you, have many talents 
and
weaknesses, feel pleasure and pain, reach our full potential 
through the
formation of deep and meaningful relationships with other human 
beings, and
your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr.  Lewis.

By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting 
into sighted
society.  We are constantly policing one another's behaviour.  
Probably one of
the more obvious examples of this has to do with gender.  There 
are hundreds
if not thousands of mostly unspoken rules about what makes a man 
a man and
how real men ought to behave, and there are twice as many 
concerning women.
These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the 
result is
often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot, or chooses 
not to,
conform.  These gender rules are just as arbitrary as those 
around
sighted/blind behaviour, and the effort similarly should be to 
relax and
remove such rules, not to more explicitly and fervently teach 
boys and girls
the so called right way to act.

This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform 
does
unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed social, 
volunteer,
and employment opportunities.  So I don't judge or condemn anyone 
who makes a
serious effort to learn the unwritten rules of sighted society, 
just as I
don't judge someone who wants to spend all of his or her time 
reading
medical journals and desperately praying for a cure.  It's hard 
being blind
in the particular society in which we live, and conforming can 
make things a
little bit easier.  But I still think we should work more on 
changing
attitudes and less on teaching blind people how to look and act 
like sighted
people.

Regards,

Marc
On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum 
<dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:

 Hi Brandon and all,

 I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this 
thread, as if
 we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has brought up in 
his post,
 I think it would prevent confusion if we changed the subject to 
reflect
 the actual topic of Brandon's message.

 Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of 
instructional
 seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can "fit in" with 
the
 sighted public is a great one! I think you should talk with the 
NFB
 leadership about this! I believe NOPBC (the parents division) 
has touched
 on this topic in their seminars at conventions.  One of the 
topics at the
 parents seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost 
always social
 skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially 
acceptable and
 how we as blind people can fit in at social gatherings, 
conforming as best
 we can to the "norms" of society.  I believe this is arguably 
more
 important for blind students, as we are often in social 
gatherings (or
 want to be in them) at our schools, with our friends, or in our
 communities.  Therefore, it is important  that we know the 
unwritten rules
 which our sighted society has made.  If we don't know them and 
follow
 them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we 
are weird,
 different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.  These are the 
very
 adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut out 
from the
 vocabulary of the public when in the context of blindness and 
blind
 people.  In other words, these are the very things we don't want 
sighted
 people thinking about us.  If this is how sighted people 
perceive us, then
 it puts our ability to get a job, volunteer in our community, 
and become
 first-class citizens at risk.  So, I think this would be a great 
thing for
 the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not 
doing
 already.  Also, since this is an important topic for blind 
students,
 perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic of a future 
NABS
 membership call.

 Just my thoughts,

 Chris

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
 To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

 Hello,
 We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe 
sex.  There
 is
 a huge difference.  If the student division is the only one with 
some
 practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...  
:)
 I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a 
sighted
 community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the 
blind
 community.
 I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or 
not) have
 some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally 
against the
 grain
 of sighted society.  My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has 
suggested
 that
 the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted 
world
 thinks.
 Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world 
looks at a
 gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.  
or a
 sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to 
him and when
 she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something 
really weird
 and
 she turns around and walks a mile away.
 This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but 
both sexual
 health and social issues are topics that are very much in need 
of
 attention
 among blind individuals, and students in particular.
 I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that 
aren't
 meant
 to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems 
would greatly
 improve convention.
 Thank you,

 Brandon Keith Biggs
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Arielle Silverman
 Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

 Hi all,
 I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled 
Whozit
 condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably 
some
 NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that 
NABS
 selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity 
among
 young or unmarried blind students.  I don't agree with that 
position,
 but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by 
extension, an
 NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
 providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership 
or
 bringing on an unwanted political debate.
 I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
 Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
 perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
 proverbial banana or some such.  When I was 15, I went to a 
diversity
 camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop 
available
 as one of several choices.  They passed around condoms and in 
fact,
 this was the first time I actually felt one.  A general workshop 
about
 sex, dating and etiquette, etc.  might be worth having.
 Arielle

 On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> 
wrote:
 Hello,
 This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have 
never
 seen

 a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without 
having to
 be

 embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any 
condoms in
 the store.  Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was 
browsing...
 Condoms,

 lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also 
probably need
 to

 provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on 
a condom
 or

 use a dental dam.
 Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial.  The 
packing
 guide in the nabs newsletter  said to pack a ton of things and I 
for one
 don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places 
that sell
 hot

 serial, so wasn't able to grab a box.  But I would have loved to 
buy a box
 for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...  
(Then of
 course

 we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't 
bring
 their

 own utensil's).
 Thanks,

 Brandon Keith Biggs
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Anmol Bhatia
 Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health


 You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
 convention...

 Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table.  We can even 
braille
 them

 so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have.  lol

 Anmol

 I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.  
Perhaps
 there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, 
like a breeze
 among flowers.
 Hellen Keller


 --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> 
wrote:

 From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
 To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students 
mailing
 list"

 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
 Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
 Hi, Brandon,

 I went into a place in Denver to  buy a dildo yes, on
 the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
 I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
 Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum.  If I
 remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
 blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
 you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
 the bookstore, personnel.  Let us know how goes it,
 okay?  At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
 Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
 professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
 Just make sure the shop is of good repute.

 Respectfully,
 Jedi

 Sent from my iPhone

 On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
 <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
 wrote:

 Hello,
 Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
 turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
 I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
 really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind...  That
 only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
 Thank you Arielle for those websites.  I don't feel
 that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
 never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
 knows that site is trust worthy.
 I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
 used in oral intercourse.  The same is not for lube I
 presume?
 Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
 was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
 the experience is often not pleasant.
 Thanks,

 Brandon Keith Biggs
 -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
 Silverman
 Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
 To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
 Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

 Hi all,
 I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
 are kind of in a
 gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
 for this list, since
 most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
 unique to blindness.
 So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
 too far afield, I
 will happily respect your judgment.  However, I
 also think that
 Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
 legitimate one and
 that there might be other blind people out here,
 including teenagers,
 who have similar concerns about how to get
 condoms, birth control or
 sexual health information without a lot of
 awkwardness or
 embarrassment.  It can be particularly difficult if
 you have to depend
 on someone else (especially parents) for
 transportation which can make
 going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
 There are a few places to buy condoms online,
 including
 www.condomania.com
 www.undercovercondoms.com
 and
 www.condomdepot.com
 Believe it or not, they also have some condom
 choices at
 www.amazon.com
 If you go to your health center on campus for any
 reason, it shouldn't
 be a problem  to ask a doctor or nurse there
 about condoms.
 I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
 having sex with a
 partner because that is a highly individual
 decision.  However, I feel
 it important that anyone who is considering having
 sex for the first
 time ensure you understand what all of your
 options are for preventing
 pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
 advantages and
 disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
 to use condoms  and
 birth control.  There are  a couple different
 websites with this kind
 of information:
 www.plannedparenthood.org
 (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
 or
 www.scarleteen.com
 This issue is particularly close to my heart at
 the moment because my
 boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
 pregnancy at a very
 inopportune time (while still in college, with a
 guy she had only
 known for a few months) and was apparently taking
 birth control pills,
 but had not been taking them consistently.  While I
 don't believe that
 sex  should be feared, it is something that
 takes some responsibility,
 planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
 while minimizing the
 risks.  Also, while I won't go into details here,
 there are other ways
 to be physically intimate with someone that are
 less risky, which
 these online forums will talk about.
 I also want to bring up  an issue that is
 somewhat relevant to sexual
 health, which I experienced and I think that some
 of you might also be
 struggling with.  This is the issue of having your
 parents drive you to
 doctors' appointments and then having them want to
 sit in or even
 participate in your appointments.  Since I attended
 college in my home
 city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
 doctors' appointments
 and would then want to come in and chat with the
 doctor while he/she
 was examining me.  This was partly because my
 parents and I saw many of
 the same doctors and she often thought it was a
 good opportunity to
 ask the doctor a quick question about her own
 health while she was
 there, or because she was curious to see what the
 doctor recommended
 to me about a particular issue.  I eventually
 realized that while it
 wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
 privacy as an adult
 patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
 room while I was seeing
 the doctor.  I didn't actually take this stand
 until I was 21 and in
 hindsight I wish I had done  it much earlier.
 By the time you are 18,
 unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
 you have a right to
 privacy of your medical information and it is
 important to establish a
 good doctor-patient relationship without a third
 person interfering.
 This is especially true when it comes to sexual
 health and by the time
 you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
 discussing your sexual
 activities or questions with your doctors without
 your parents being
 around.  You might also want to consider getting a
 driver or even
 taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
 this problem.
 On a related note, by the time you are in high
 school, you should know
 the names of all medications you take on  a
 regular basis and any
 chronic medical conditions you may have.  If you
 ever have to go to the
 emergency room, this kind  of information may
 be requested of you.
 Best,
 Arielle

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