[nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted societyatsocial gatherings

Thu Sep 20 02:45:11 UTC 2012

Hello everyone, my name is Sarah.  I am bj years old.  I just 
graduated a program called D.P.I.  Davidson Program For 
Independence.  I had to go there because Guide Dogs Of the Desert 
said I had to go.  So I graduated from there, tomorrow I go get 
my first guide dog! My interests are rides, reading, listening to 
tv, dogs and horses

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:48:32 -0700
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with 
sighted societyatsocial gatherings

Hello,
There are quite a few ideas that are universal through out 
cultures.
For example, it is never socially acceptable to sway in 
conversation.  It is
only acceptable to rock back and forth mildly when playing guitar 
or more
heavily when one is studying the old testament as a Jew.
Otherwise chin up, strait and relaxed stillness for the torso 
almost always.

Also, facial expressions are almost constant through out all 
cultures.  A
smile is always happy, big eyes are innocents or raised eyebrows, 
big eyes
with mouth a little open is startled or scared.
Beckoning is also a very universal gesture with the fist out in 
front facing
up with the index finger moving up and down like the person is a 
balloon and
the string is on your finger...

Fit me in or something along that lines is more inclusive because 
it means
one can ask about fitting in to their theater group, dance teem, 
glee club,
getting in a relationship, dating...

I am not sure how people are expecting to fit into a sighted 
world without
some sighted help.
Although I am guessing that the way the list will pan out is more 
blind
people asking questions and both blind people and a few TVIs or 
parents will
help.  I am on a couple lists with quite a few sighted people and 
with
questions like this they are invaluable...
Who knew that hugging yourself with your hands in a fist over 
your heart, as
if you were trying to keep warm, actually looks like you are 
terrified of
something?
Thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message-----
From: Arielle Silverman
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 12:24 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with 
sighted societyat
social gatherings

Hi all,
Sorry to be difficult but I am not willing to join a listserv 
called
"Being  Socially Acceptable Blind" or "Looking Sighted".  Both 
names
imply that all sighted people look and act the same  or that 
there is
only one way to be socially  acceptable; these are notions that,
frankly, I believe are offensive to blind and sighted people 
both.
I believe such a listserv should be intended to be a 
nonjudgmental
forum where blind folks can ask questions or share frustrations 
and
get supportive answers from blind peers and blind mentors, not a 
place
where subscribers are told they must look and act a certain way.  
Also,
while we might let TVI's join if they want, I think the vast 
majority
of the subscribers should be blind people and we should keep 
teachers
and authority figures to a minimum.
I'd support a  name like "blind-fitting in", "blind-social" or
"blind-dating" perhaps.
If the group is created with a tolerant, non-judgmental name I'd 
be
happy to help out with it.

On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> 
wrote:
 Names:
 See me blind (SEM at blah.whatever)
 Being Socially acceptable blind (SEB)
 Looking Sighted (LS or LSighted)
 talk sightless (TSightless)

 Just some names...
 Thanks,

 Brandon Keith Biggs
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Desiree Oudinot
 Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 10:48 AM
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with 
sighted
 societyat

 social gatherings

 That's actually a pretty good idea for a name.  That was the 
only thing
 holding me back from creating a group, the fact I couldn't 
really
 think of a name for it.  As for making a website, that would be 
a cool
 idea too, but I don't know html or anything, so I decided not to 
go
 that route.
 Where I was going when I was talking about the different student
 divisions was that I don't want it to become a point of 
contension on
 the list.  I don't want people going to war over which 
organization's
 philosophy prepares people to deal with social and dating 
situations
 better.  It's fine for people to be part of whatever they so 
choose,
 but I absolutely will not tolerate stereotypes about either one.  
I
 want it to be a safe place where people can feel open enough to
 discuss such uncomfortable and embarrassing topics as their 
social
 awkwardness.  If someone starts saying that joining the NFB 
would help
 them be more independent, or that the ACB is crap, well, what 
will
 that solve? I'm not a member of either, nor do I ever intend on 
doing
 so, so I feel that I could nip this stuff in the bud if it would
 happen, and I'm not even saying it necessarily would become a 
problem,
 it's just something to consider.

 On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> 
wrote:
 Hello,
 Frankly I don't know what the difference between the ACB's 
student and
 NFB's

 student division is.  We are all dealing with exactly the same 
things.  So
 I
 really believe we should get our sighted parents, friends and 
whatnot to
 be

 on the list to answer questions we may have.  Many TVIs would 
jump at the
 chance to be on a list serve devoted to socializing.
 Just make a group, possibly:
 bseb at googlegroups.com or something :).  Being socially 
acceptable blind or

 a

 cooler name LOL...  Any ideas?
 I even think this should have a website with different articles 
that
 someone

 can brows to answer any personal questions they may have.  
Because this is
 such a big issue.
 Thanks,

 Brandon Keith Biggs
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Desiree Oudinot
 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 9:29 PM
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with 
sighted
 societyat

 social gatherings

 And this is precisely why I wanted to create a separate list to
 discuss these kinds of issues and more.  And, at the risk of 
offending
 people, I wanted it to be a separate list, separate from the NFB 
or
 ACB, I wanted it to be the place for every blind person, no 
matter
 their political or social status or whatever, to discuss how 
they fit
 in with society.  Why does it offend you that blind people, 
whether
 they be men or women, should try to do their best to interact as
 sighted people do? Are there really specific guidelines we have 
to
 follow? I really want to understand this.  I know as well as 
anyone
 what struggles we have to go through growing up just to be 
treated
 like human beings.  First, we're blind people, then we're young, 
and
 the stereotypes surrounding young people of our generation are 
just as
 crippling as those surrounding being blind.  So being dealt both 
as our
 hand in life is kind of a double whammy.  I still struggle when 
someone
 actually treats me as an equal.  I want to run away.

 On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
 I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
 1.  Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out 
of
 me because it just does for some reason.
 2.  Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
 shouldn't be scientists.  What does that statement say about us
 girls?  Girls should be married to men with decent jobs.  No, I
 will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
 this isn't the friggin' 1800's.  Girls and women can take care 
of
 themselves, and they can work and support families.  Jason, my
 current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
 man and work and get paid for the woman.  Some societies demand
 that all men work and women stay home.  We, Americans though we
 are, still have these demands on blind women.  I as a blind 
woman
 cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood.  Since 
Jason
 can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
 to do it.  Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
 different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
 ordinary men.  Jason, due to his disability, does not work.  I,
 due to mental illness, may never work.  I want to work so bad,
 but where?  Goodwill is out of the question.  I'm not working 
for
 nothing or low wages because I'm a woman.  And no way will I
 accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
 organs inside me.  I as a blind woman will not accept rules
 saying "You will be taken care of.  You will be a stay-at-home
 wife.  You will be poor."  No way.
 Beth

  ----- Original Message -----
 From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
 sighted societyat social gatherings

 Chris wrote,
 Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules 
which
 our sighted society has made.  If we don't know them and follow
 them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we 
are
 weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.

 Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
 that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
 another, and that they are arbitrary.  I believe that such
 unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
 self-loathing, and anguish.

 We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
 particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
 put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
 pejorative.  I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
 interested.

 Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people 
are
 accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
 look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
 are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
 respect as sighted people.  The message shouldn't be, "hey, we 
can
 follow your rules, so you should accept us".  Instead, the 
message
 should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
 pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the 
formation
 of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings, 
and
 your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
 discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr.  Lewis.

 By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
 into sighted society.  We are constantly policing one another's
 behaviour.  Probably one of the more obvious examples of this 
has
 to do with gender.  There are hundreds if not thousands of 
mostly
 unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
 ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
 These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
 result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
 or chooses not to, conform.  These gender rules are just as
 arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the 
effort
 similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
 explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called 
right
 way to act.

 This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
 does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
 social, volunteer, and employment opportunities.  So I don't 
judge
 or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
 unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge 
someone
 who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
 journals and desperately praying for a cure.  It's hard being
 blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
 can make things a little bit easier.  But I still think we 
should
 work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind 
people
 how to look and act like sighted people.

 Regards,

 Marc
 On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
 <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:

  Hi Brandon and all,

  I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
 thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
 brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
 changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
 message.

  Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
 instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
 "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
 should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
 (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
 seminars at conventions.  One of the topics at the parents
 seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
 skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
 acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
 gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
 I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
 we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
 schools, with our friends, or in our communities.  Therefore, it
 is important  that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
 society has made.  If we don't know them and follow them, what
 does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
 different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.  These are the
 very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut 
out
 from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
 blindness and blind people.  In other words, these are the very
 things we don't want sighted people thinking about us.  If this
 is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
 get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
 citizens at risk.  So, I think this would be a great thing for
 the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
 doing already.  Also, since this is an important topic for blind
 students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic 
of
 a future NABS membership call.

  Just my thoughts,

  Chris

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
  Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

  Hello,
  We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
 sex.  There is
  a huge difference.  If the student division is the only one 
with
 some
  practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
 :)
  I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
 sighted
  community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by 
the
 blind
  community.
  I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth 
or
 not) have
  some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
 against the grain
  of sighted society.  My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
 suggested that
  the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
 world thinks.
  Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
 looks at a
  gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so 
weird.
 or a
  sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
 him and when
  she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
 really weird and
  she turns around and walks a mile away.
  This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
 both sexual
  health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
 of attention
  among blind individuals, and students in particular.
  I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
 aren't meant
  to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
 would greatly
  improve convention.
  Thank you,

  Brandon Keith Biggs
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Arielle Silverman
  Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

  Hi all,
  I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
 Whozit
  condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are 
probably
 some
  NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel 
that
 NABS
  selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual 
activity
 among
  young or unmarried blind students.  I don't agree with that
 position,
  but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
 extension, an
  NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
  providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
 or
  bringing on an unwanted political debate.
  I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
  Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, 
and
  perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
  proverbial banana or some such.  When I was 15, I went to a
 diversity
  camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
 available
  as one of several choices.  They passed around condoms and in
 fact,
  this was the first time I actually felt one.  A general 
workshop
 about
  sex, dating and etiquette, etc.  might be worth having.
  Arielle

  On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
 wrote:
  Hello,
  This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people 
have
 never
  seen

  a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
 having to
  be

  embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
 condoms in
  the store.  Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
 browsing...
  Condoms,

  lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
 probably need
  to

  provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put 
on
 a condom
  or

  use a dental dam.
  Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial.  
The
 packing
  guide in the nabs newsletter  said to pack a ton of things and 
I
 for one
  don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
 that sell
  hot

  serial, so wasn't able to grab a box.  But I would have loved 
to
 buy a box
  for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
 (Then of
  course

  we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who 
didn't
 bring
  their

  own utensil's).
  Thanks,

  Brandon Keith Biggs
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Anmol Bhatia
  Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

  You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
  convention...

  Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table.  We can 
even
 braille
  them

  so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have.  lol

  Anmol

  I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me 
sad.
 Perhaps
  there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
 like a breeze
  among flowers.
  Hellen Keller

  --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
 wrote:

  From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
 mailing
  list"

  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
  Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
  Hi, Brandon,

  I went into a place in Denver to  buy a dildo yes, on
  the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
  I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
  Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum.  If I
  remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
  blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
  you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
  the bookstore, personnel.  Let us know how goes it,
  okay?  At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
  Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
  professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
  Just make sure the shop is of good repute.

  Respectfully,
  Jedi

  Sent from my iPhone

  On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
  <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
  wrote:

  Hello,
  Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
  turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
  I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
  really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind...  That
  only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
  Thank you Arielle for those websites.  I don't feel
  that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
  never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
  knows that site is trust worthy.
  I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
  used in oral intercourse.  The same is not for lube I
  presume?
  Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
  was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
  the experience is often not pleasant.
  Thanks,

  Brandon Keith Biggs
  -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
  Silverman
  Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
  To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
  Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

  Hi all,
  I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
  are kind of in a
  gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
  for this list, since
  most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
  unique to blindness.
  So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
  too far afield, I
  will happily respect your judgment.  However, I
  also think that
  Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
  legitimate one and
  that there might be other blind people out here,
  including teenagers,
  who have similar concerns about how to get
  condoms, birth control or
  sexual health information without a lot of
  awkwardness or
  embarrassment.  It can be particularly difficult if
  you have to depend
  on someone else (especially parents) for
  transportation which can make
  going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
  There are a few places to buy condoms online,
  including
  www.condomania.com
  www.undercovercondoms.com
  and
  www.condomdepot.com
  Believe it or not, they also have some condom
  choices at
  www.amazon.com
  If you go to your health center on campus for any
  reason, it shouldn't
  be a problem  to ask a doctor or nurse there
  about condoms.
  I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
  having sex with a
  partner because that is a highly individual
  decision.  However, I feel
  it important that anyone who is considering having
  sex for the first
  time ensure you understand what all of your
  options are for preventing
  pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
  advantages and
  disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
  to use condoms  and
  birth control.  There are  a couple different
  websites with this kind
  of information:
  www.plannedparenthood.org
  (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
  or
  www.scarleteen.com
  This issue is particularly close to my heart at
  the moment because my
  boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
  pregnancy at a very
  inopportune time (while still in college, with a
  guy she had only
  known for a few months) and was apparently taking
  birth control pills,
  but had not been taking them consistently.  While I
  don't believe that
  sex  should be feared, it is something that
  takes some responsibility,
  planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
  while minimizing the
  risks.  Also, while I won't go into details here,
  there are other ways
  to be physically intimate with someone that are
  less risky, which
  these online forums will talk about.
  I also want to bring up  an issue that is
  somewhat relevant to sexual
  health, which I experienced and I think that some
  of you might also be
  struggling with.  This is the issue of having your
  parents drive you to
  doctors' appointments and then having them want to
  sit in or even
  participate in your appointments.  Since I attended
  college in my home
  city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
  doctors' appointments
  and would then want to come in and chat with the
  doctor while he/she
  was examining me.  This was partly because my
  parents and I saw many of
  the same doctors and she often thought it was a
  good opportunity to
  ask the doctor a quick question about her own
  health while she was
  there, or because she was curious to see what the
  doctor recommended
  to me about a particular issue.  I eventually
  realized that while it
  wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
  privacy as an adult
  patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
  room while I was seeing
  the doctor.  I didn't actually take this stand
  until I was 21 and in
  hindsight I wish I had done  it much earlier.
  By the time you are 18,
  unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
  you have a right to
  privacy of your medical information and it is
  important to establish a
  good doctor-patient relationship without a third
  person interfering.
  This is especially true when it comes to sexual
  health and by the time
  you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
  discussing your sexual
  activities or questions with your doctors without
  your parents being
  around.  You might also want to consider getting a
  driver or even
  taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
  this problem.
  On a related note, by the time you are in high
  school, you should know
  the names of all medications you take on  a
  regular basis and any
  chronic medical conditions you may have.  If you
  ever have to go to the
  emergency room, this kind  of information may
  be requested of you.
  Best,
  Arielle

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