[nabs-l] in defense of the Google car

Mon Apr 15 02:42:14 UTC 2013

Bravo!... that is all.

On 4/13/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Testify
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum
> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 8:50 PM
> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
> Cc: setoth96 at gmail.com
> Subject: [nabs-l] in defense of the Google car
>
> Ashley,
>
> Let me give you an example of what Suzanne, Sophie and I (among others)
> have
> been saying. You have previously mentioned on this list that you live in
> northern Virginia, near Fairfax and Falls Church. It is true that your part
> of Virginia is relatively close to Washington, DC, and that many people who
> work in the DC metro area live in Fairfax County. However, your public
> transportation options are limited. I know this because I live about an
> hour
> away from Washington and consequently know some people who work there, both
> blind and sighted.
>
> You have the DC metro system. However, there are a few problems with this
> option. Firstly, you must get to your nearest metro station before you can
> even consider taking the metro. If it's not in walking distance, how are
> you
> going to do that? Will you not need a sighted driver, a public bus, or some
> other form of transportation provided by somebody else? You will. So, you
> run into the same problem of relying on somebody else to provide
> transportation. With the Google car, this would not be an issue- in fact,
> you wouldn't even need to take the metro. Secondly, the metro can be very
> crowded. This can be a blessing and a curse. On one hand, you have people
> who can give you directions if needed. However, this can make the trip take
> longer and be more of a hassle. In short, if you're in any kind of hurry,
> don't take the metro--not in DC.
>
> There is also the option of the public bus. However, as with the metro,
> there are two problems with this: time and availability. As Suzanne has
> repeatedly reminded us, trips which would only take 10 or 15 minutes by car
> can take hours by public bus or subway. There is also the issue of
> availability. In urban cities, this is not much of a problem, as the bus
> system covers everything within the city limits in most cases. However, the
> limitation of the city limits can present problems if you live in a suburb
> of the city in question. Fairfax County is the biggest county in Virginia.
> So, if you live in a suburb of the city of Fairfax (and many people do,)
> you
> run the risk of living in an area which is not covered by the city's bus
> system. Why do you think there is so much traffic on the roads of most
> major
> cities? It's because "Ol' Sighty" doesn't want to deal with the hassle of
> public transportation. Is this self-serving? Maybe, but I don't think so.
> To
> me, "ol' Sighty" is weighing the pros and cons of his options to get from
> Point A to Point B, and deciding that a car would serve his needs best.
>
> Then there's paratransit. This option can present the same problems as the
> others, but on a larger scale. Whereas you are only dealing with the time
> it
> takes a public bus to get from its starting point to its destination, a
> paratransit van might show up hours late to the pickup location if it shows
> up at all. If this happens (and it often does to countless blind people,)
> the blind person relying on paratransit is left stranded until the van
> shows
> up. There is an NFB song about this which comes to mind. Entitled "The
> Paratransit Song," it goes like this:
>
> Para-transit, para-transit, para-transit, I did ride.
> You have hurt my heart and soul, but most of all you hurt my pride.
> Had a rendezvous with my sweetheart set the time for half past eight.
> By the time it finally got there, it was almost three hours late.
> Then the driver when arriving took away my long white cane.
> So I missed a step or two. Now I'm  in a searing pain.
> So I boarded paratransit looking for an empty seat.
> Then another person's wheelchair caught and tripped me off my feet.
> Though my port of destination only was a mile away, Yet I had to cross the
> Interstate, and the driver took all day.
> My return trip I requested from a clerk who could not write.
> They forgot where they had left me, so I camped out overnight.
> Para-transit, para-transit, you have left me sad and blue.
> For the sweetheart whom I once loved is now seeing someone new.
> Oh this means of transportation has caused me such a fuss I'll give up on
> para-transit, and I'll ride the public bus.
>
> Yes, this is probably a hypothetical and extreme story. However, it raises
> some important points in the debate we have been having on this list.
> Should
> we have to be subjected to stories like the one related in the song? Must
> we
> settle for the unreliability of the subway or the public bus? We have had
> to
> settle for this for so long now, but now the technology exists which will
> allow us to have the same freedom in choosing our mode of transportation as
> our sighted peers. Yet, some of us are saying that you would rather take
> the
> bus. That is your opinion and your choice, and I respect that. If "Ol'
> Sighty" has the option to take the public bus instead of driving a car, we
> should have that choice as well, although I disagree with it. But this
> doesn't mean we shouldn't have the choice. We in the Federation believe
> that
> we can and ought to compete on terms of equality with our sighted peers. If
> technology allows us to compete on equal terms with "Ol' Sighty" in one
> more
> area of life, I say we should take advantage of that opportunity!
>
> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
> Public Relations Committee
> Maryland Association of Blind Students
> Phone: (443) 547-2409
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne
> Germano
> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:42 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>
> Public transit serves our need just fine? Really? First of all I don't want
> to settle for just fine! Apparently you have not really tried to go to many
> places!!! Because I have lived in major cities San Diego, North Chicago
> suburb and Phoenix and they are plenty of places the the bus does not even
> go near not to mention I don't want to take 3 hours to get somewhere. I
> want
> a life that is not 5, 6,7 hours a day a a freaking bus!! I have zero desire
> to ever live in the actual down town of a city.
>
> I have had to take en entire day off from work to go to a 15 min doctor
> appointment because of how long it took on the bus and it was a 25 min car
> drive.
>
> I have ridden the bus for 47 years and I am tired of it! I still hate it.
>
> How about grocery shopping? I don't want to be limited to what I can carry
> walking to the bus stop and then walking form the stop to my house.
>
> I want to be free to go where I when when I want and for how long I want
> and
> ALONE if I want
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 14, 2013 at 6:51 AM, Carly Mihalakis
> <carlymih at comcast.net>wrote:
>
>> Good moring,
>> Ol' Sighty does  a lot of weird shit, so  I don't think you oughtta
>> airmark any riches you are able to save, toward such a self serving
>> project as a car, when the People's transit already serves your needs
>> just
> fine.
>> Yet, if you insiste on matching ol' Sighty in his capacity to be
>> frivolous, and self serving, then have fun!
>> Carlycarlymih at comcast.net
>>
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list <
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>,National Association of Blind Students mailing
>>> list < nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 01:01:45 -0700
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> Evening, Josh,
>>>
>>> Yes, I tend to regard a question of blind people devoting such a
>>> substantial portion of their riches to such a lofty and  arguably
>>> realistic venture as a friggen car, as a completely self serving way
>>> to bleed one's coffers unnecessarily, with a healthy trepidation...
>>> As if such an Over-the-top stroking of one's ego actually matters
>>> within a big picture?  After all, people are suffering, even dying in
>>> our world quite unnecessarily. war and oppression of our brothers and
>>> sisters continues being initiated, and propagated, as the unfeeling
>>> wheels of Capitalism, and policies designed  to oppress us grind on,
>>> unabated.
>>> And people's soul focus seems to be a Reinventing of the wheel?
>>> Have a good day!
>>> Carly
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> Google is supportive of having blind drivers, they have come to
>>> events and shown blind folks the car. I've sat in quite a few,
>>> although I've never been in one while it has been driven. I'd think
>>> it will be exactly like being a passenger of a sighted driver, but
>>> without the crazy breakings every few minutes and the heart attacks
>>> the sighted drivers constantly face.
>>> Frankly, I would trust the Google Car way more than I would trust my
>>> mom as the driver. Computers are much more reliable than humans in my
>>> opinion.
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>> -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum
>>> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 6:03 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> As it stands, he's going to need a sighted driver in the car who can
>>> take the wheel when the need arises. But Google will have to fix this
>>> if they're hoping for a blind person to drive it independently.
>>>
>>> Chris Nusbaum
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi, Chris, Kirt and everyone else on this thread,
>>>
>>> You guys are right in saying that, one need not pass judgement
>>> without fully experiencing this machine in Wonderland. it's true we
>>> don't have all the information. And, I think it's right when you say
>>> the thing doesn't murge onto the freeway. What happens to the driving
>>> blink if he dares to usese se the interstate? usese the freeway?
>>> 4/12/2013, christopher nusbaum
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Kirt,
>>>
>>> I agree with you. Before we make any judgments on the Google car, we
>>> must remember that it is still in the planning stages and that all
>>> Google cars that have been tested so far are no more than prototypes.
>>> This is evidenced by the need for the Google car to be taken over by
>>> human driver when it pulls off the highway, as the story which
>>> someone reposted here mentioned.
>>>
>>> Carly, we must also take into account that some blind people don't
>>> live in areas where public transportation is easily available, such
>>> as Boston or New York City. I, for instance, live in a semi rural
>>> town in Maryland, where our only options For public transportation
>>> are paratransit and a cab service. As you can imagine, neither of
>>> these options are preferable Because of the cost if not the
>>> reliability. For this reason, I would love the independence that the
>>> Google car might give me in this area.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>
>>> Chris Nusbaum
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Apr 12, 2013, at 2:41 AM, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Patrick,
>>>  If it's time they want, I'm willing to give it.  I hope you're
>>> right; we'll have to wait and see.  I guess my only point was that
>>> this thing isn't right around the corner; while it's realisticly
>>> viable now, it's still probably a long ways off before we'll be able
>>> to drive.  Where the google car is now is probably comparable to
>>> where the internet was thirty or so years ago; people could see the
>>> possibilities, it was realistic and people "in the know"
>>> were probably
>>> aware it was coming...but it still had a long way to go before it was
>>> viable to the general public.
>>>  And, Patrick, you're probably right that airplane pilots don't have
>>> to manually control the plane very much between takeoff and landing.
>>> Still, I can almost guarantee you they are paying very close
>>> attention in the event something goes wrong.
>>>  Carley,
>>>  I don't really see anything inherently wrong or undesirable about
>>> driving.  In most places it is probably more efficient than public
>>> transport.  Of course there are exceptions; New York city comes to
>>> mind, for instance.  Still, living where I do now, I would totally
>>> jump on the chance to drive if I could and it were realistic and
>>> safe, at least most of the time.  That being said, it's far enough
>>> away that I'm definitely not going to stop riding my busses and
>>> trains any time soon.
>>>  Best,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 4/10/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Count me in.  I'm driving.   No wait; not driving, drivin.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.****org<nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nab
>>> s-l-bounces at nfbnet.org>
>>> >]
>>> On Behalf Of Carly
>>> Mihalakis
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 11:33 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National
>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> Hi, List,
>>>
>>> On the other hand, for my whole life I have watched sighted folk seem
>>> to agonize over so much turmoil, and hostility towrd their fellow
>>> man, as they drive. I have always been grateful not having that crap
>>> to contend with. Besides, I am not confident about chances of ever
>>> affording such a car. And, I don't care about the principles personal
>>> cars supposedly afford. Where can they take you that a bus, train, or
>>> friend/driver cannot?
>>>  Ultimately, i believe traveling from point A to point B, oughta be a
>>> communal affair. Leave the driving to ol' Sighty!
>>> So no, on the car!
>>> Car At 06:23 PM 4/11/2013, Sophie Trist wrote:
>>> I can't wait to see these google cars come out. It will be a major
>>> milestone in the independence and assimulation of blind people in
>>> sighted society. My only worry is that the sighties won't trust us to
>>> drive, even (maybe especially) if the car was computer-controlled.
>>> Even my boyfriend, who is blind, says he will never trust a
>>> self-propelled car. Our trouble will be convincing them that it's
>>> safe for us and for others on the road.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 14:02:08 -0700
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> The reason why the Google Car is Superior is because it is already
>>> going mainstream, it has a major company behind it and there is
>>> nothing wrong with backing both cars.
>>> The big debate will be if people want to drive under their own
>>> control or a computers. It is not unlike reading Braille or using a
>>> screen reader to read a book. Braille is all fine and dandy, but a
>>> screen reader is very important. The difference is the Google car is
>>> going mainstream and will have mainstreem support. It would be the
>>> same if Jaws went mainstreem >>> and companies like Google started
>>> making units that used Jaws and no screen.
>>> Braille would be useful, but not particularly necessary for most
>>> common tasks.
>>> If one used a car on city roads and highways, there would be very
>>> little or no need to manually drive. If one wanted to map a long
>>> driveway or country road, one would need to manually drive it till
>>> the road could be completely entered into the database.
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Sophie Trist
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 1:37 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> Brandon, I totally 100% agree!!! However, didn't the NFB invent a
>>> self-propelled car of sorts? If so, it might be hard to convince them
>>> to back the google car unless we can prove theirs is superior.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:05:01 -0700
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> Yes in a way, the logistics of liability still need to be taken into
>>> account I'm sure and licensing probably still needs to be worked out,
>>> but if the government officials are pushed, it will happen very soon.
>>> I think the NFB should push for these quite hard. Perhaps they could
>>> even ask that a car come to the convention, I think Google would take
>>> the challenge.
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Justin Young
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 9:13 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
>>>
>>> So does this mean these vehicles will soon be on the market for
>>> individuals to purchase in Nevada?  Sounds like a very interesting
>>> project.
>>>
>>> On 4/11/13, Robert William Kingett <kingettr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Google's self-driven cars will soon be appearing on Nevada roads
>>> after the state's Department of Motor Vehicles approved on Monday the
>>> nation's first autonomous vehicle license.
>>>
>>> The move came after officials rode along on drives on highways, in
>>> Carson City neighborhoods and along the famous Las Vegas Strip, the
>>> Nevada DMV said in a statement.
>>>
>>> The Nevada legislature last year authorized self-driven cars for the
>>> state's roads, the first such law in the United States. That law went
>>> into effect on March 1, 2012.
>>>
>>> Google's self-driven cars rely on video cameras, radar sensors,
>>> lasers, and a database of information collected from manually driven
>>> cars to help navigate, according to the company.
>>>
>>> The DMV licensed a Toyota Prius that Google modified with its
>>> experimental driver-less technology, developed by Stanford professor
>>> and Google Vice President Sebastian Thrun.
>>>
>>> Google's self-driving cars have crossed the Golden Gate Bridge and
>>> driven along the picturesque Pacific Coast Highway, according to the
>>> company.
>>>
>>> Autonomous vehicles are the "car of the future," Nevada DMV director
>>> Bruce Breslow said in a statement. The state also has plans to
>>> eventually license autonomous vehicles owned by the members of the
>>> public, the DMV said.
>>>
>>> Legislation to regulate autonomous cars is being considered in other
>>> states, including Google's home state of California.
>>>
>>> "The vast majority of vehicle accidents are due to human error.
>>> Through
>>> the use of computers, sensors and other systems, an autonomous
>>> vehicle is capable of analyzing the driving environment more quickly
>>> and operating the vehicle more safely," California state Senator Alex
>>> Padilla said in March when he introduced that state's autonomous car
>>> legislation.
>>>
>>> Other car companies are also seeking self-driven car licenses in
>>> Nevada, the DMV said.
>>>
>>>
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-- 
Kaiti