[nabs-l] Extended Time

Fri Feb 8 05:05:43 UTC 2013

I agree with Kaiti here.  I believe that an access office is a place
where we can find the tools to be able to take our classes as
independently as possible.  I don't think that means never using a
reader or using human help for things, but I do think it means that we
(as students) participate in our classes as fully as sighted students
in all ways possible.

Our assistive tech specialist is working to make forms on the
graduation page accessible.  I am helping her by testing different
forms with jaws and trying to explain why they do not work.  Someone
came into her office a while back, and when we explained about this
new project, she asked why it was necessary that these forms be
accessible since someone could easily read me the form and fill it out
for me.  The assistive tech person gave the best answer.  She said
that it's not about whether or not someone could help me; it's about
doing things independently and being able to access the same material
and fill it out the same as everyone else.  I wanted to applaud her.
:)

Unfortunately, testing is such a gray area that you could strive to be
independent all day long, but if, for example, you are reading a
foreign language document that jaws isn't pronouncing in the language,
your test is going to take longer.  There is just no definite answer
here.

On 2/7/13, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Chris and all,
>
> Very good point.  I think that was forgotten and it is a very good
> point to consider.
>
> Ari: To give more of an explanation my school uses a system called
> Isidore, although it's just a version of Sakai (named after the patron
> saint of learning, school children, and books to be clever).  Each of
> my courses has it's own web site.  If a professor for my psych class
> assigns a quiz I would go to the psych web site, go to a section
> called tests and quizzes, and open the test that the professor has
> uploaded to Isidore.  Usually it's basic text with radio buttons,
> checkboxes, and edit fields for entering answers.  Once I hit the
> submit button the professor has access to my answers and can grade
> them.  As an added bonus, once they've graded my test and uploaded it
> to another section of the site called the gradebook I can see my score
> on my test as well as all my other assignments.  I haven't had
> experience with Moodle, but I'm assuming that it's pretty similar to
> Sakai or Blackboard.  It's a shame it's not accessible, but it's not
> in as wide use as Blackboard and other systems like it so it may not
> have been tested for accessibility.  Blackboard itself didn't become
> accessible till a few years ago when a bunch of schools and blindness
> organizations pushed for it.  You're right that it's part of the
> digital age, but that's why I like it; it's quick, convenient, and I
> can do it independently.  I hope this gives you an idea of what it's
> like.
>
> Digressing back to my previous email though, I think it's important to
> consider when taking help is appropriate even if it is always at our
> disposal.  I think having the mindset that you could just have someone
> else do something for you because you can't see it can be a
> double-edged sword; on the one hand, it's great to have that assurance
> because if you really do need help due to true accessibility issues
> than the help is there, but when JAWS works and there's simple text
> and good web code, it's really not necessary.  I think training people
> to assume you need help even when you could do something yourself may
> cause them to not truly understand what is an accessibility issue and
> what is not.  It also sends the wrong message and makes them think
> that blind people are needier than we really are, but that's just my
> take on it.
>
> On 2/7/13, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Kaiti and all,
>>
>> 	Keep in mind that Ari lives in South Africa. I don't know what (if
>> any) differences there are in the way tests are taken in South Africa
>> when
>> compared with our country. Ari, this may be something you would be able
>> to
>> give insight into.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti
>> Shelton
>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 6:06 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Time
>>
>> Ari,
>>
>> Looks like you have differing perspectives on this issue to consider.
>> I love online test-taking because it gives me independence.  I don't have
>> to
>> schedule a time in the testing center and can just access the information
>> and complete the forms from my classroom or dorm if it's a take-home
>> quiz.
>> I guess the amount of accessibility your college provides would be a
>> variable of consideration here, but if they do a decent job and the Sakai
>> or
>> blackboard site you're using has code that follows basic accessibility
>> guidelines there shouldn't be anything visual that would serve as an
>> obstacle to keep you from doing your work on your own.
>>
>> Carlie, don't take this as being critical because I don't mean to sound
>> harsh, and usually I actually agree with you on most things, but I guess
>> it's a matter of philosophy too.  I personally don't like to ask other
>> people for help unless I truly do need it.  I'm not one of those people
>> who
>> dreads, hates, or avoids asking for help, but I do like to do everything
>> I
>> can independently and don't see the necessity of getting another person
>> to
>> help you take your test.  To me it feels like that was something I needed
>> in
>> elementary or middle school but now as a college student I don't need
>> that
>> anymore.
>>
>> On 2/7/13, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Good morning, Ari,
>>>
>>>          Personally, I reject all that On-line test taking, preferring
>>> instead human inner action. I don't feel it saying anything less of me
>>> to call on my fellllow humans to, in the absence of my own visual
>>> capabilities, to do the visual stuff, for me.
>>> I mean, aren't people upon this earth to help each other, no mater how?
>>> This, is to say that personally, I don't mind calling on my fellow
>>> humans to do the ocular seeing for me, just as I would be totall
>>> obliged if another  person needed me to fulfill some sensual imput
>>> that was within my capacity, and not ther's.6/2013, you
>>> wrote:
>>>>I am curious to know about this online testing thing, because it seems
>>>>as if you guys are mostly all doing it? What I mean is, what is the
>>>>software you are doing the test on? We use moodle here and once they
>>>>had an online test for something or other but the unit said the online
>>>>testing at my uni isn't accessible. It is also very interesting to see
>>>>how you guys do online tests in class, I suppose its all in the
>>>>digital revolution. Unfortunately here I suppose many students can't
>>>>afford the technology or the professors don't trust online tests, in
>>>>any case, everyone still uses the old pen and paper, even for multiple
>>>>choice quizzes, so we then have to do it orally with a tutor.
>>>>Ari
>>>>Ari
>>>>
>>>>On 2/6/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> > Kirt,
>>>> > I'm glad that works for you. Yes I've heard of the quic hot key R
>>>> > for radio buttons.
>>>> > Yes, it takes you to the first radio button. But what I'm saying is
>>>> > there are four buttons for four choices per answer.
>>>> > I hear all of the choices and then go up line
>>>> by line to select my choice. I
>>>> > don't thinking pressing shift R will work because it will just take
>>>> > me to the last radio button, but I need to see the whole line. Its
>>>> > hard to explain, what I mean is I need to see what radio button
>>>> > goes with each answer.
>>>> > I wish jaws said something like B radio button checked and then
>>>> > read the answer but its not like that.
>>>> > Maybe our blackboard is different. I think finding the start of the
>>>> > quiz with H for heading is my best bet and once I figure out what
>>>> > heading level it is, I can use the number heading for the next
>>>> > ones; for instance, 3 for heading 3.
>>>> >
>>>> > I feel a reader could give me the info I need by scrolling up to
>>>> > say question 4 and reading me what I selected rather than me going
>>>> > line by line through the questions. Maybe I should do that.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I haven't had online quizzes before so I'm
>>>> hoping to get used to it and find
>>>> > short cut keys that work. Still IMO, extended time should be
>>>> > granted if I feel its needed. My professor will have to give me
>>>> > extra time in class quizzes though.
>>>> >
>>>> > Perhaps my disability counselor will talk to the professor.
>>>> > Ashley
>>>> >
>>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>>> > From: Kirt
>>>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 1:50 PM
>>>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Extended Time
>>>> >
>>>> > Ashley,
>>>> > I don't mean to be contrary, but I have found quite the opposite to
>>>> > be the case in my personal experiences with jaws.  You can press
>>>> > are, from the start of the page, to go directly to the first radio
>>>> > button on the first question. It will save you a whole bunch of
>>>> > arrowing down.  And, at least for me, once I figured out how Jaws
>>>> Associates radio buttons with particular
>>>> > question answers, on whatever quiz I'm
>>>> taking, it's been really easy to just
>>>> > apply that pattern to the rest of the quiz. Hopefully, I am making
>>>> > sense.
>>>> > For me, personally, the only online assignments that warrant extra
>>>> > time are the ones with lots of images that need to be described by
>>>> > somebody else.
>>>> > If
>>>> > an online quiz, or test, or assignment is all text, which many of
>>>> > them are, I usually finish well within the allotted time. In fact,
>>>> > I have noticed, my screen reader reads things to me faster than
>>>> many sided people read. While I
>>>> > don't comprehend as much as I do with braille, this is definitely
>>>> > an advantage for me sometimes which, I daresay, most people don't
>>>> > have.
>>>> >
>>>> > Sent from my iPhone
>>>> >
>>>> > On Feb 6, 2013, at 10:34 AM, "Ashley Bramlett"
>>>> > <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Hi Arielle,
>>>> >> Well I see your points. Extended time while we use braille could
>>>> >> send a bad message I suppose that we're inherently slow.
>>>> >> I cannot remember whether I used  extended time all the time in
>>>> >> high school or not. I had a study hall period with my vision
>>>> >> teacher, or TVI as
>>>> >>
>>>> >> they're called. Here I finished any tests or in class assignments
>>>> >> I needed
>>>> >>
>>>> >> to for the day or worked on homework. This was very valuable time
>>>> >> for me since I struggled with some spatial concepts too and my TVI
>>>> >> sort of acted as a tutor for math as well and explained diagrams.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I think ideally that  extended time and accomodations should be
>>>> >> given on a
>>>> >>
>>>> >> case by case basis. You may need some accomodations in one class
>>>> >> and not others.
>>>> >> But that isn't how college works; they have to make accomodations
>>>> >> across the board so you have one accomodation sheet for all
>>>> >> professors.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I feel that yes extended time is needed in college because of the
>>>> >> medium its taken in. I consider equal access to be braille since
>>>> >> sighted students read it; they do not have to hear it.
>>>> >> As you know, braille is not given to us in college except for
>>>> >> maybe math if you beg for it.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> So, I think using jaws is slower than reading it in print. If its
>>>> >> multiple
>>>> >>
>>>> >> choice, I find I need to hear it twice because as with any test
>>>> >> taker, I read it once and eliminate two answers and read it again
>>>> >> to pic the best answer.
>>>> >> A sighted user clicks the correct button where as we have to go
>>>> >> line by line and listen to the line and arrow up til finding the
>>>> >> right answer.
>>>> >> If using a reader, I need them to repeat my answers sometimes to
>>>> >> ensure they circled the right one.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I am trying to get extended time for practice online quizzes
>>>> >> because I need to scroll back up to check my answers.
>>>> >> I'm confused as to what radio button goes with what answer. I wish
>>>> >> the Letter options of A, b, c, d were on the same
>>>> >>
>>>> >> line but jaws isn't reading like that.
>>>> >> Not to mention that I use a minute or two to find where the darn
>>>> >> quiz begins! Yes, I do use the quick navigation keys such as H for
>>>> >> heading to help but when there are lots of headings this doesn't
>>>> >> help too much.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I find that other forms of tests such as short answer and essay
>>>> >> formats take me less time. I don't always use extended time. But
>>>> >> its there in the many cases I do need it.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Now, I  just hope I can get
>>>> >> extended time for the blackboard quiz. It has to be manually
>>>> >> changed for me to get extended time.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Ashley
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman
>>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 9:57 PM
>>>> >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Extended Time
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hi all,
>>>> >> The last post about using extra time on quizzes got me thinking
>>>> >> about why we automatically get extra time to take tests and
>>>> >> whether or not this is a good idea. I think the extra time is
>>>> >> intended to correct for any issues with our accommodations or
>>>> >> technology that make test-taking slower; for example, it might
>>>> >> make sense to use extra time if we have to have a scribe write an
>>>> >> essay for us or if we are using a reader and asking them to repeat
>>>> >> things or read answer choices a few times. Extra time also seems
>>>> >> appropriate if we have a problem with technology breaking, files
>>>> >> not downloading correctly, etc. But I question whether extra time
>>>> >> is really appropriate for online quizzes, for example, or for
>>>> >> Braille
>> or large print tests.
>>>> >> As a Braille reader I used extended time only on a few occasions
>>>> >> and I found that I only "needed" it when, deep down, I didn't
>>>> >> fully understand the material I was being tested on. This happened
>>>> >> a lot when I had tactile diagrams to interpret since I have always
>>>> >> been bad with spatial mapping and understanding tactile images. So
>>>> >> I would use the extra time to agonize over test questions I didn't
>>>> >> understand and then eventually guess an answer. I really don't
>>>> >> think the extra time was helpful for either my test performance or
>>>> >> my learning and I feel it only acted as a Band-Aid covering up the
>>>> >> real issue which was that I didn't know how to interpret tactile
>>>> >> images. Had I not been granted extended time this might have
>>>> >> become a more pressing issue for me to deal with back in high
>>>> >> school. Similarly, I worry that when Braille readers are
>>>> >> automatically granted double time across the board, it allows
>>>> >> teachers to grow complacent with slower Braille-reading speeds
>>>> >> than is desirable and almost sets up the expectation that Braille
>>>> >> reading is inherently slow. It might be appropriate to
>>>> >> *temporarily* grant an individual student extended time while they
>>>> >> are still in the process of building Braille fluency, but granting
>>>> >> it to everybody who reads Braille is something that bothers me. I
>>>> >> also question the implication that blind students just do things
>>>> >> slower and that nothing can or should be done about it so just let
>>>> >> them take extra time. I don't need to tell you that extended time
>>>> >> is not granted in the job world and this is becoming more real for
>>>> >> me
>> as I approach graduation and employment myself.
>>>> >> I'm not trying to belittle anybody who uses extended time. I am
>>>> >> just proposing that we reflect a little on what the extra time is
>>>> >> specifically meant to accomplish, why we use it and whether or not
>>>> >> it is actually helpful. I would propose that we make mindful
>>>> >> decisions about when to accept extended time and that we aim to
>>>> >> use it only when it is truly necessary and beneficial. In order to
>>>> >> grow as students progressing toward employment, I think we should
>>>> >> also be aware of why we are finding ourselves needing extra time
>>>> >> and see if there are skill issues we might be able to address so
>>>> >> that we need it less in the future. In my own case my weakness
>>>> >> with tactile diagrams probably won't impact me much on the job,
>>>> >> but a weakness in Braille reading speed or Web navigation is
>>>> >> something that can be addressed with training and practice and
>>>> >> addressing it can make a person much more competitive on the job,
>>>> >> and able to get the job done as efficiently as sightedd colleagues.
>>>> >> Best,
>>>> >> Arielle
>>>> >>
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> --
>> Kaiti
>>
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-- 
Julie McG
National Association of Guide dog Users board member,  National
Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary,
Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President,
and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16