[nabs-l] Training centers not the real world

Miso Kwak kwakmiso at aol.com
Wed Nov 13 07:11:57 UTC 2013


First of all, I couldn't read every part of this thread.
I would like to comment on the school for the blind and mainstream.
On an earlier message I believe I already stated that I am an advocate 
of mainstream.
Again, I didn't attend any school for the blind in this country but 
from my observation I think it can be said on American system as well.
As Bridget mentions students can learn rigorous curriculum and perhaps 
have more accessible learning experience in science and math.
However, from my personal experience being mainstreamed gives more 
motivation and more opportunities for a blind student.
When a blind student is mainstreamed, most likely students will be 
almost forced to learn how to advocate and communicate with others.
Also, as others have mentioned public school system has a wider range 
of curriculum offerings. I haven't met a friend who was given 
opportunities to participate in AP or IB program from school for the 
blind.
When it comes to science and math and other visual subjects, it could 
be true that school for the blind may have more accessible and perhaps 
efficient way of teaching it but at the same time
1. Public schools should be able to provide accessible education in 
these areas. It is rather idealistic statement but I personally 
experienced AP chemistry and advanced Spanish classes in public school 
system. TVI and the classroom teachers and I worked together to make it 
happen.
2. Because the school for the blind system is trying to make it more 
accessible, the quality might suffer.
For instance, when I went to school for the blind in Korea I learned 
 from the same textbooks that were being used for public school system 
but often my class skipped some labs or just didn't have good enough 
quality diagrams.
It was when I came to America that I felt like I was learning science 
more in depth.
(It's not that Korean science education system is inadequate.
Even though I went to a school for the blind known for best quality of 
academics science education was just not up to where it should be.)
Being mainstreamed has not been always a smooth sailing but I have no 
regret for not attending school for the blind in America.
Thank you for reading.

-----Original Message-----
From: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:19 am
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world

Bridget,

It is great that you had a good experience at your school for the
blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across the
country speaking about what they've seen from various schools.  Of
course, like everything else, schools for the blind are certainly not
created equal, and some are better than others.  It sounds like you
happened to be in one of the better ones.  I have heard horror stories
from people at several state schools, and even know older people who
are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in there
almamaders.  Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, and now
for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid because
independence is not fostered there and expectations are very low.  I
don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed kids
are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at least,
it is a state requirement that all students take at least two years of
a foreign language in order to graduate.  I do know of one blind
person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know plenty
more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because they've
taken it for years.  I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be in
the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to qualify
for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I could
apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college.

Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her comment made
me cringe because she was right.  In reference to school districts
sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of their
hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is
illegal, and any school district that does that can and should be
served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant
descrimination.

On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi <denverqueen1107 at comcast.net> wrote:
> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am
>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my
>> parents thought and what I believe as well.
>>
>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great
>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that
>> manner.  I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual
>> person.
>>
>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been
>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose.  Like others I've talked 
to,
>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom
>> used to kick me into gear as a child.  If I didn't want to do my
>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the
>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the 
choice
>> of doing it right after school or later before bed.  My mom also
>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a 
very
>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me
>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the
>> time.
>>
>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the
>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on 
the
>> matter said I was too bright for it.  I have the impression that most
>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much
>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in
>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back
>> from reaching my potential.  So, they enrolled me in my local
>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from
>> pre-school to graduation.  From what I've seen and heard this is the
>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable
>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to
>> be honors and AP students in high school.  Some of these kids do not
>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and
>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the
>> process.
>>
>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability
>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk
>> about sports.  My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted
>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine
>> for me.  Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated
>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school
>> too.  I think the advantage of doing sports through these
>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is
>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of 
my
>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a
>> tag team on the field.  My job was to find the ball and get it down
>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal.
>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our
>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of 
our
>> parents.  I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was
>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I
>> thought was no apparent reason.  It took me a while to understand 
that
>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but
>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him 
better.
>>   Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up 
for
>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do
>> at school.  I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club
>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band
>> without assistance.  I don't think you should expect adaptations or
>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for
>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error
>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is
>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the
>> future.  Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and
>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like
>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other 
subjects
>> I didn't have as much access to.  This worked out really well in 
cases
>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the
>> eye."  In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a
>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a
>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions
>> we came up with to work.
>>
>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of
>> the training for their child.  I know my parents did it for me, and
>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help 
me
>> learn to be independent.  On that same note, I disagree with the 
claim
>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I
>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back,
>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn
>> to do things yourself.  That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and 
I
>> love how I'm teaching myself.  Have I burned things?  Yes.  Have I 
had
>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I
>> misjudged how cooked it really was?  Yes, but it's through experience
>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own
>> favor.  In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, 
but
>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended
>> up taking over.  She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I
>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact 
that
>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted,
>> even if my first attempt was not perfect.  Different parents will
>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have
>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area.  When those
>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability 
to
>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because
>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected.
>>
>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school,
>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook
>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an
>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and
>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour 
away
>> from my family.  Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient,
>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and
>> make them work.  That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the
>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial.  I could
>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at
>> least.
>>
>> Just my thoughts.
>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley <mistydbradley at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> RJ,
>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever
>>> center
>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made 
for her
>>> to
>>>
>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a 
dormitory
>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of
>>> dormitories,
>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to
>>> stay
>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your 
friend may
>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child 
while she
>>> is
>>>
>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the 
center
>>> may
>>>
>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with 
her
>>> on
>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully.
>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, 
but
>>> the
>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also 
help me
>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the 
opportunity to
>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to 
attend
>>> next
>>>
>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to 
me
>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything 
out so
>>> I
>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to 
allow
>>> me
>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but 
your
>>> friend
>>>
>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of 
any of
>>> the
>>>
>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with 
her
>>> on
>>> it.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Misty
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Steve Jacobson
>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>
>>> RJ,
>>>
>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual 
case
>>> such
>>> as that of your friend.  In general,
>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well 
might
>>> mean
>>>
>>> for bringing up a child in the long
>>> run.  I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a
>>> confident
>>> independent traveler without putting in
>>> some serious time learning and experiencing.  If one is not a 
confident
>>> traveler, for example, one is going to
>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to 
be,
>>> or
>>> to be there for that child.  Your
>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could 
take
>>> care
>>> of the child, and there could be other
>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's 
child to
>>> take
>>>
>>> training seems very short-sighted to
>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote:
>>>
>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four 
years
>>>> ago.
>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her 
to a
>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "minh ha" <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>
>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep 
saying
>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need 
to
>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these
>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain
>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence 
skills
>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training
>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the
>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired 
over
>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing
>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I
>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we
>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a 
stove,
>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want 
to
>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to 
teach
>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to 
essentially
>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can 
gain
>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in 
college
>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to
>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I 
can
>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not
>>>> going to do me any good without the experience.
>>>> Minh
>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>   good points thus far, and great discussion.
>>>>>    The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand 
them)
>>>>> is
>>>> that
>>>>> students in these  schools may get  the proper instruction in 
skills
>>>>> that
>>>>> would allow them to be  as successful in the classroom as their
>>>> classmates.
>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are 
adapted
>>>>> for
>>>> the
>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not 
always
>>>> readily
>>>>> available .
>>>>>    In the training center environment, you are learning skills 
that
>>>>> will
>>>> help
>>>>> you   become confident and competent enough to  compete and  
succeed
>>>>> in
>>>> the
>>>>> world.  in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills  that 
enable
>>>>> us
>>>> to
>>>>>    be successful and  gain the attitude and belief  that not only 
can
>>>>> we
>>>>> lead  productive  successful, and meaningful lives,  but that  
this
>>>>> should
>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves.
>>>>>   So, while the implication one might get is that such learning
>>>> environments
>>>>> shelter  people  from the  real world , it is my view that 
generally
>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared  for that  real 
world
>>>>> in
>>>> a
>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave  
you
>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do.
>>>>>     Darian
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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for
>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the 
dusty
>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was 
vanity:
>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
> Hi, Misty and all,
> St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for me 
and
> too conservative for others.  I met my love and life at the Colorado
> Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us, but
> then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the things
> were not clean enough.  Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning, and
> she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget it.
> This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m being
> alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew I 
was
> diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I are
> trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but 
workplaces
> are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk 
why I
> went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for
> myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my 
parents
> still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to refuse
> to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on.  
They
> still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is
> property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, and 
it's
> really hard for me to understand why.  Training centers can't possibly
> be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's definitely 
not
> real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and 
because
> of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd 
rather
> have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in and
> say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough."
> Beth
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Kaiti

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