[nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy

Fri Nov 15 04:54:03 UTC 2013

Hey Tyler,
You really like to debate. You got at me before and now Joe.
I suspect Joe will still have his opinion and you will have yours in the 
end.
Well how refreshing to  see  you go after another guy.
Enjoy the debate and Joe is good at it.
I have known and respect Joe; he lives in my area and we happened to attend 
the same booz allen disability  mentoring day; neither one of us got jobs 
from that networking experience but he did secure a job with the FBI I 
think.

Joe is  a sharp guy with a masters degree.

Anyway, I tend to agree with the comments put forth by Min and others here.
Fact is the economy is down. Its hard to find jobs when no one is hiring; I 
spoke with employees of three very large companies who reported
lay offs there. Fact is that college students now often return home and take 
odd part time jobs because they cannot use their degree. Its tough.
I think very conservative people are in denial and accept no blame; they 
simply believe you have to pull yourself up from your bootstraps and
work hard. Its not as easy.
Employers are less likely to hire us cause of expensive accomodations. 
Believe  me, I know that firsthand.

I take a moderate position. I recognize the barriers we face like the 
economy, accessibility issues and discrimination.
I will never deny that. But I also believe we have to make the best of our 
situations. We
have to attempt to set ourselves apart from the thousands of others seeking 
jobs.
That might mean taking volunteer leadership roles in civic organizations, 
volunteering in general, taking extra classes or getting extra certificates, 
or
getting extra references.

The points you and Minh raised are good ones. Another thing; you cannot 
always bring in your own accomodations as some people suggest.
We can and will compete; it just is harder.
Good luck with your schooling and finding work.

Ashley
-----Original Message----- 
From: Littlefield, Tyler
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:53 PM
To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy

Joe:

first, I'd love to hear where you live where money and job skills and
opportunities rain from the skies. It's pretty easy to talk about
"fronting the expenses," but most people who do graduate from college
have already taken out loan upon loan to graduate with. Subsiding on
raman, cheep beer and cheep pizza does not exactly mean people can
afford to "front the money" for an accessible environment.

Second, my comments about people living with their parents does not
justify our ability (or lack there of, as you say) to get a job. I'm
just trying to point out that the economy is pretty rough right now,
which keeps competition up.

Congrats on your job, congrats on your constant skill sharpening. Now we
all just need to learn to be just like you, and we will live full lives
with 5 jobs, 3 businesses and with no worries in the world!

On 11/14/2013 10:16 PM, Joe wrote:
> Tyler,
>
> An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations 
> if
> we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. In
> fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a blind
> person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses.
> Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses
> associated with creating an accessible working environment.
>
> I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living 
> with
> parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of 
> our
> generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to 
> job
> interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the same?
> I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people are
> seen in a negative light for having a disability.
>
> You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got 
> the
> job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can
> compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this convenient
> card to play when no other arguments hold water.
>
> I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said the
> economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is always 
> a
> piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop
> hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent
> unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether 
> we
> are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether.
>
> Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:53 PM
> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing 
> list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy
>
> Joe:
> Minh's point was just this:
>
> There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see 
> college
> graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are 
> qualified
> and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your skills sharp, 
> so
> are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, who do you think
> employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the blind guy who they
> are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on accomidating, or
> are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in line? They can 
> pay
> lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they
> don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right now, which means 
> it's
> bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell
> out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when 
> you
> can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You sound like
> you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. No, Minh never
> said we are less able. She was just pointing out some of the logical 
> reasons
> behind your point. you can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the
> facts of life. As to your jab about her mantality, she's probably one of 
> the
> most active blind people I've met, so I don't think that's the case here. 
> It
> may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did
> nothing.
> On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote:
>> Tyler,
>>
>> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's
>> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with
>> a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business
>> running, because although government jobs are said to be secure,
>> nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still
>> had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six
>> months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why?
>> Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair
>> professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to
>> create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a lot
>> of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years ago. I
>> say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new strategies
>> to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first one that's the
>> toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily increase his income,
> you can do it better.
>> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are
>> jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one
>> of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get
>> chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the
>> condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number
>> of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've
>> been doing to separate yourself from those numbers.
>>
>> Ashley,
>>
>> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During
>> that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities
>> and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my
>> first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed
> positively.
>> Minh,
>>
>> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from.
>> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we
>> as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to
>> people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes
>> no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class
>> citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not
>> thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire
>> someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right
>> person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need
>> accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or
>> we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes
> things significantly worse for us.
>> Joe
>>
>>
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>
> --
> Take care,
> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he 
> that
> dares not reason is a slave.
>
>
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-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that 
dares not reason is a slave.

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