[nabs-l] Training centers

Fri Aug 15 20:13:30 UTC 2014

Hi,

I did not mean to contradict myself in my previous long post.

A blind person can teach a guide dog team, but only if that blind trainer aggress with the training philosophy that went into that dog's training.  This could also be said for a sighted person.

I believe that the reason this might not work is because you've got a lot of people from various guide dog school coming into centers, and those guide dog schools have various training methods of training dogs.
On Aug 15, 2014, at 6:48 AM, Antonio Guimaraes <freethaught at gmail.com> wrote:

> Valerie,
> 
> Thank you for your message, especially since you had to type it twice, and still got your thoughts out there.
> 
> I am hoping to be swayed, or at least have a better understanding how blind people can train a blind and dog team for mobility.
> 
> I am slightly confused when you said that here is why a blind person can’t teach guide dog work. Then you made great points on how a blind person would be able to do it.
> 
> I don’t think it is difficult to gage the dog’s temperament, and to understand also the person’s energy, then match all that to see how the tea works together.
> 
> This is all very interesting since it gives me information I didn’t realize went into matching a person with a dog.
> 
> In my case, I am a mello person, and was matched with a very energetic gold retriever. I needed a dog with a very light pull, and that is what I god.
> 
> What you do training dogs may be frowned upon by many, including most schools, and many dog users, and blind observers. But you prove to me to be good at what you do, and you love it, too.
> 
> I would not sign on to an individual trainer for my guide dog, blind or sighted. Maybe excluding those trainers who came from the background of working at a dog guide school. I would in the latter case question why that trainer left the school.
> 
> I think the schools are there for a reason, and they know what they are doing. They offer follow up and support for their grads, so I would much prefer to be actively involved with a school.
> 
> Now, I may not mind having you train my dog. I think you know what you’re doing, you know dogs and people, and you are competent. I don’t know your background, but I can say with certainty you love dogs, and have been around them for a long time.
> 
> You have the skills, the love, and the drive to teach dogs to guide, or to do other things. I can tell from your message that you have a large repertoire of techniques you use.
> 
> You made no mention of how much you can see in the original message, and it doesn’t really matter if you’re applying for a job, and you sound like a great candidate, and you’re going to train my dog.
> 
> If you were to do that, I might freak out when I found out you are blind, which is how we usually experience things. Prejudice is all around, including from those of us who are blind.
> 
> If you did sign up to train my dog, and I freaked out by your being blind, you would no doubt tell me how you do what you do. I might listen, and be reassured by your awesome ability and skill.
> 
> If I refused to work with you based on my conceived notion you could not do the job because blindness is a limitation, I would not be a person you’d want to work with anyway. 
> 
> If I am prejudicial, or if I decide your services will not fit my needs or personality, we probably would clash as a team of trainer, client, dog working towards the same goal.
> 
> It is my philosophy that if an employer does not think I can do the job, and if she is not willing to look at the issue with an open mind, then I can’t do the job, and she’s not going to let me prove otherwise. This is worth pointing out since it shows how I think about working with those employers who don’t believe the blind person, I  can do the job.
> 
> I have to prove myself equal or better than the sighted worker to be taken seriously, or I’ll be screened out of most jobs.
> 
> We need to understand that if we’re going to work as a blind anything: teacher, social worker, or guide dog trainer.
> 
> You did interest me in being more willing to have a blind person, you, train m future, make believe dog. I will probably not get another guide any time soon, but I have more confidence that you could do it.
> 
> But I would not hire an dog trainer because they went to LA Tech, or because they are a member of the NFB, or because they are certified by some kennel association or another.
> 
> Credentials are important, and required, but I’d hire you to train my dog because I believed you can do the job better, or more conveniently than another.
> 
> I would not hire a blind dog trainer because they are blind, and that must automatically qualify them better than a sighted person to teach a blind person. I would not join in, or support a fight to open up a guide dog training program for blind people run by or closely affiliated with the NFB.
> 
> We do too much as a organization as it is, and I would ask when does it stop.
> 
> I know, I know you didn’t argue in your message for a guide dog training school for the blind, but I’ve heard the idea being thrown around before.
> 
> If a blind person wants to train dogs, be a lawyer social worker, well, there are law schools, grad school programs in social work, and schools that train guide dogs, and if a blind person is a competent student of law, or psychology, or dog training, I don’t see much reason to segregate ourselves into special programs that  teach the blind to teach the blind.
> 
> There is more than guide dog training philosophy here, but it all does come together when trying to understand why people might turn blind people down for dog training work.
> 
> I don’t hire my doctor because she went to the same school I did, or because she may happen to be Brazilian like me. I go to her because I feel she is a great doctor. If I spoke no English, I might find that she was the best match because we could communicate, and she’d be able to treat me.
> Likewise, I do not think I would discriminate against the sighted if I were in a position of hiring others. Being blind does not make one any better or worse than a sighted based based on blindness alone.
> 
> I look forward to reading on, and again, thank you Valerie for your informative message.
> 
> Antonio
> 
> On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:04 PM, Valerie Gibson via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> I had this long message typed out on why i thought that a blind person could assist a guide dog user in travel...and then, I erased it.
>> At first, saying that a blind person couldn't help a blind user who used a guide dog in travel struck a nerve with me.
>> There are so many ways   in which that sort of statement could have been taken.
>> 1. A blind person can't literally teach a person if he or she has a guide dog.
>> 2. A blind person can't train blind person in the proper use of his guide dog, which might indicate
>> 3. A blind person cannot train a dog no less a guide dog.
>> Not knowing how this was meant is irrelevant because, wether the person is going to say "oh yeah, that's how I meant it." here's my thoughts on why it wouldn't work for a blind person to work with a guide dog user in travel.
>> To work with a guide dog user means to work with the team altogether.  This means one must know about the person's travel skills on the whole, and not just with a dog. (I'm amazed the amount of people who get guide dogs and still run into people or openly admit being "better with the dog than the cane.")
>> That being said, the instructor must also know about dog psychology. How does the dog work? What's his drive level? What's his temperament? How do the two go together? In what ways does the drive of the dog hinder his training?
>> These are things you have to know as a dog trainer because it helps you understand the best ways to discipline and praise a dog. A dog with a high drive might respond negatively to correction if that correction might increase the drive.  In fact, rarely do you want to increase a dog's drive, but nor do you want to bring the dog down to no drive.  A dog with a soft temperament doesn't need a strong correction or it will decrease the drive to the point where the dog will not work. However, giving a dog too soft a correction if it has a harder temperament will only make the dog look at you like, "That all you got?"
>> A dog with a high drive that you're trying to correct doesnt need an excited command because that will increase the drive, but rather, a person must be calm but firm.
>> 't, we've hopefully established that you need to understand the person, and you need to understand the dog.
>> Now you must understand them as a team.  How does the handler's temperament affect how the dog works? is the person too hard with the dog in corrections?  Too soft?  
>> These are things that a blind person can work with the person on, and it might take a couple of weeks for the instructor to figure out who the team works, both as individuals and as a whole.
>> Blindness is not an issue here, even if it would take some extra work that I'm not sure many people would like to put in as a dog trainer.
>> Here's where the real glitch is:
>> Every person who trains their dog is different, and so every method of training dogs is different.  Even if the school believes one way, the handler may believe another.
>> I'm in the process of training my own dog, and I won't go into the amount of times someone's told me, "why do you have a muzzle over his face? he an't breathe." These people mean well, and obviously do not understand how gentle leaers work.
>> On top of that, every school has it's own training philosophy, and an instructor at a center would have to know how each school operates it's training regiment.  But what if the trainer doesn't agree with that type of training done by a school that the blind user attended?  
>> I have my training philosophy, and I adapt it for each dog I work with.  My philosophy is that all dogs are different, and what works for one might not work for another. 
>> I use a prong collar on my akita that I'm correctly training. I use it after we've mastered the commands, and he just needs a "Hey! I'm talking to you!" nudge, which is hardly ever, I might add.  Because he has a double coat, the prong collar gets his attention. It should also be noted that I know how to use one, and no one should use them without knowing how.
>> I would not, however, use a prong collar on a dog because i think that sort of correction is just not needed and there are softer ways in which to correct.  
>> That being said, many guide dog schools, to me, seem to stick with a certain set of training tools, and many believe the prong collar to be cruel.  When used with a soft tempered dog, or a smaller dog, or used incorrectly by the handler, I agree. 
>> An instructor would have to agree with every philosophy and truing technique used by every guide dog school.  
>> I know you're  pro bay thinking, "no they don't. They can train the dog using the schools' techniques even if they don't agree." and my     answer is, "yeah, they can, but I doubt they'd do it for long". for someone who truly loves working with dogs, money won't change how they feel a dog should be treated.
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 14, 2014, at 11:12 AM, Karl Martin Adam via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> Alright Antonio, I'll bight.  Why do you think that blind mobility instructors aren't capable of training people with dog guides?  There don't seem to be any real reasons for this apart from the same prejudices that have prevented blind people from teaching mobility at all for decades.  If a blind person is competent enough to keep their student safe and help them employ structured discovery, then why aren't they competent enough to do this if the student happens to use a dog?
>>> 
>>> Karl
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Antonio Guimaraes via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> To: Sofia Gallo <sofiagallo13 at gmail.com>,National Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 12:32:38 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers
>>> 
>>> The training at the NFB centers does not include guide dog mobility training. the nobel is based on cane skills, so it would follow that you’d not use your dog while learning to use a cane.
>>> 
>>> I guess the centers like you to practice your cane skills during business hours. I agree that this is a bit slanted towards cane use.
>>> 
>>> I believe the Colorado Center may be more compatible with keeping your dog bond ad training up best for a couple of reasons.
>>> 
>>> The Denver metropolitan area offers you more choices ad opportunities to work your dog on off hours.
>>> 
>>> I don’t know how much one can do out in a place like Roustin. I have a perception that the Louisiana Center is way in the middle of nowhere, so if I had a dog, or wanted to learn city living mobility skills, I’d avoid it.
>>> 
>>> I wish I knew more about other centers to tell you, Sofia, but no matter what I say, there will be a push to say the center i brought up is custodial, or substandard, which may or may not be true.
>>> 
>>> You are the one ultimately responsible for making your choice, and it seems you are doing a great job at asking for information and researching.
>>> You might eat to talk to staff, and students at each potential training center, and do your best to get past the hype. Any center r director you talk to wants to recruit you as a student. I can’t blame them. They work for and run the best center around, no matter what that center is.
>>> 
>>> You might be willing to leave your dog with an instructor, under their desk from 8:30 to 4:00, and work your dog in the community after hours. That might work well if you work at it, even though I agree you’re giving up some bonding and hard training from the schools and your time with the animal.
>>> 
>>> The truth of the matter is the NFB centers do not have dog trainers on hand, they employ mobility instructors. Mobility instructors in my opinion should be well versed in training blind people to navigate with a dog, cane, and a hybrid approach.
>>> 
>>> I also don’t think a blind mobility instructor can adequately observe the intricacies of a blind person and dog guide team to provide adequate services and training.
>>> 
>>> Others certainly feel otherwise, which is an interesting debate for a noter time.
>>> 
>>> NFB centers work with blind instructors, and blind mobility trainers are able to train blind students in the use of the cane.
>>> 
>>> I for one wonder what guide dog training schools would think, say, or do if NFB centers started training blind people to navigate with their dogs.
>>> 
>>> It would be interesting to partner with dog guide schools to offer services to dog users at an NFB center, even if at a very limited basis, but that is too far outside the NFB box to ever happen.
>>> 
>>> All that said, Sofia, you could get a lot out of training at an NFB center. It may be the best option available to you.
>>> 
>>> I wish you luck, and hope you find the center tat best suits you.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Antonio
>>> 
>>> On Aug 9, 2014, at 7:29 AM, Sofia Gallo via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yea, I'd be interested to know how people handled it since it doesn't sound like I can work with my dog a lot.
>>> 
>>> Beth, that's scary! I wouldn't want to risk that.
>>> 
>>> I'll definitely contact the directors.
>>> 
>>> Sofia
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Aug 9, 2014, at 6:32 AM, Beth Taurasi via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> There's a problem with guiide dogs and training.  There's the possibility of separation anxiety for the dog, which one of my FB friends wrote in a heartrending manner.  She's not getting her dog back due to traiing.
>>> Beth
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Miso Kwak via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Sat, 9 Aug 2014 00:34:40 -0400 (EDT)
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers
>>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> I am sure some people on this list have experience of attending an NFB
>>> center with a guide dog.
>>> I know that Pam Allen who is the director of Louisiana Center for the
>>> Blind did her training when she had a guide dog. I was in contact with
>>> her regarding related issues and she told me this. You may want to
>>> contact her.
>>> Miso Kwak
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Sofia Gallo via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> To: Matthew Dierckens <matt.dierckens at me.com
>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Sent: Fri, Aug 8, 2014 6:58 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers
>>> 
>>> That unfortunately doesn't sound like enough to maintain a working
>>> relationship with a dog.
>>> 
>>> Are there centers not affiliated with NFB?
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Aug 8, 2014, at 3:21 PM, Matthew Dierckens <matt.dierckens at me.com
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> You use an NFB straight cane from 8:00 AM to 4:30 PM.
>>> You're free to use your dog to go to and from the apartments, and
>>> obviously to relieve the dog.
>>> 
>>> Matthew Dierckens
>>> Macintosh Trainer
>>> Blind Access Training
>>> www.blindaccesstraining.com
>>> 1-877-774-7670, extension 3
>>> matthew at blindaccesstraining.com
>>> Introduction to the Macintosh Operating system and voiceover course
>>> available now. Spots are limited, sign up here
>>> http://blindaccesstraining.com/training-courses/
>>> 
>>> On Aug 8, 2014, at 13:55, Sofia Gallo via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> I also have a question about the training center: I really want to go
>>> to one some time soon because it would help me address areas that I
>>> need work in like navigating unfamiliar places and improving
>>> independent living skills. However, I've heard that the centers don't
>>> let us work with guide dogs -- we can only do that in our free time.
>>> I've felt a lot safer and more independent with my dog, and I can't
>>> just stop working with her for 9 months, which keeps me from
>>> considering a center even though it would really help me. Does anyone
>>> have any input or does anyone know someone who has gone with a guide
>>> dog?
>>> 
>>> Thanks!
>>> 
>>> Sofia
>>> 
>>> On 8/8/14, Candice Chapman via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Hi Roanna,
>>> 
>>> You're right. Talking with family and your rehab counselor is
>>> important, but
>>> another important place to start is the NFB center you want to
>>> attend. The
>>> center can be helpful in assisting with issues you may have with
>>> rehab.
>>> 
>>> Best if luck with your research.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Candice Chapman
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Aug 7, 2014, at 8:43 AM, Roanna Bacchus via nabs-l
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear Nabs Members,
>>> 
>>> I have a question for all of you.  How would you prepare to attend
>>> one of
>>> the Nfb training centers? I know that you have to discuss
>>> attending one of
>>> these facilities with your vocational rehab counselor since they
>>> are out
>>> of state.  I'm assuming that each of you spoke to your families
>>> before
>>> planning to attend one of these centers.  I'd like to hear your
>>> stories
>>> about preparing to attend an Nfb training center.
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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> 