[nabs-l] NABS List Manners
Karl Martin Adam
kmaent1 at gmail.com
Sat Aug 16 15:19:39 UTC 2014
I really don't think that "just delete what you don't want" is a
sufficient response to women being sexually harassed by guys
doing things like trying to trade tech help for a bra size. It
is our responsibility as members of this list and the
responsibility of the moderators to ensure that this is a safe
place where people can post without being harassed. Maybe we
can't get rid of this sort of thing completely, but that's no
reason to tolerate this when it's brought to our attention.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Littlefield, Tyler via nabs-l" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
To: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>, National
Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 00:21:45 -0400
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
Hello:
I think this thread has gone on way to long. Firstly, the guy
asked her
bra size off list and she replied on list. Maybe it was not
appropriate,
but welcome to the internets in 2014. Just delete what you don't
want.
Second, you're talking about these emails for social networks
like it's
a huge issue. Maybe there are a few guys out there friending any
girl
with an email address, but usually what happens is they reply,
then they
say "here Facebook have my address book" and bam, everyone gets
invitations. whether or not the person ment to send them.
I don't know that holding confirence calls really is the way to
go, just
send out rule reminders every month and if there's a problem,
just send
it off to the admins to deal with as they see fit. Confirence
calls,
classes, talks, required agreements and the like are just going
to be
ignored by those who don't care and acknowledged for those who
already
acknowledge them. Forcing someone to say "I agree" to the rules
is just
forcing them to go through another step to register and they can
still
say "hey, I didn't read those rules." This also ends up taking a
bit of
extra work to embed in mailman, as I don't think it has this
option. You
do have the option of sending out monthly emails or welcome
letters, at
which point you could include rules, then failure to follow them
can be
the same results as not following the rules you have to click a
button
to agree, whatever that may be.
I think this is getting blown out of perportion. There are spats
on and
off list, but if you really have a problem with someone just
block them
or hit delete on their messages.
On 8/16/2014 12:10 AM, Kaiti Shelton via nabs-l wrote:
It would also be great if somehow, we could address the issue of
people taking advantage of the fact that other list members
can't
necessarily be anonymous and hide their emails to avoid unwanted
attention off-list. I know policing such matters is
impractical, but
it is also kind of weird to have NABS members who I don't know
practically stalking me because they want me to follow them back
on
Twitter, want to be a friend on facebook, want to be a
connection or
in my circle on Linked In or Google Plus, etc, plus send random
emails
to my address asking sometimes really odd questions. I think
people
would be less likely to jump the gun when inappropriate behavior
happens on list and more apt to handle it appropriately if
things like
this didn't happen, as I know they happen to a fair number of
people
on the list. Would it be too much to put a guideline in which
says
something about how permission should be gained before sending a
messages of a personal nature off list, or please don't friend
someone
on other social media outlets unless there is a mutual desire to
be
friends? Or, perhaps in addition to internet etiquette
guidelines,
there be some basic social guidelines in case some of this
behavior is
due to a lack of social supports outside of the internet, and
the
person for whatever reasons needs a bit of guidance in how to
properly
correspond with others so as not to come off overbearing.
The bigger question is, how could this realistically be done
without
severely limiting intellectual conversation. Over the last few
years
I've gotten some very nice emails from people who wanted to
respond to
something I said privately, to give an honest opinion that they
were
too shy to put on the list for the very reason that they thought
they
would meet resistance or disapproval, or people who noticed
things
like my major and were curious for information. I wouldn't want
to
stifle any of these things and have actually made some good
friends
through some of these conversations which happened thanks to the
NABS
list, but it is a little weird, annoying, and a bit creepy, when
some
random guy won't stop sending me reminders to add him on
different
social media outlets, especially when they're ones I don't check
or
didn't really care to learn how to use after deciding I really
didn't
need the account, and they won't get the hint that I'm either
not
checking my account, am only still receiving their invitations
because
I haven't figured out how to block them on a site I never use,
or am
not interested in adding a stranger to see my personal
information. I
think that is a huge problem we have with the list, and
especially
puts a lot of the girls on here into a tricky spot because since
this
is all electronic, to engage by telling the person to leave you
alone
gives them what they want. I used the delete key a lot for
dealing
with these kinds of messages, but found with some the emails
just keep
coming even after 2 years of membership on the list.
On 8/15/14, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
I like Jedi's idea of having a conference call on internet
etiquette,
but my concern is that only those who abide by the rules already
will
care to show up. It could be very effective, but my gut just
tells me
that it would be like preaching to the choir. Unfortunately,
calling
individuals out who have consistently demonstrated some of the
negative or disrespectful behaviors we've mentioned on this
thread is
probably not the way to go either, unless done so by list
moderators
like Mary and Dave.
I still think policing is the best way to go about this, but it
would
be up to the moderators, and could be a huge undertaking. I
like the
idea of having the rules set up on a screen after subscribers
complete
the initial form, and am a huge fan of using I agree or I don't
Agree
buttons to finish the subscription process if it is feasible. I
think
that would make it much harder for people to just say they were
ignorant of the rules because they never cared to look for them.
Sure, people will skim through it and not read, but at least we
can
say that they broke the rules at their own disgression and had
an
equal opportunity to read them. Granted, I'm of the opinion
that when
you join a list it's your responsibility to use common etiquette
and/or educate yourself on the rules and therefore we're already
all
equal here anyway, but obviously not everyone on the list
operates
that way and that's why we're having this problem to begin with.
Arielle gave some great advice about when to just let a thread
go and
to not respond, and I echo some of Antonio's sentiments about
deleting
a lot of what doesn't interest you. Some of the personal
promotion
stuff is annoying, but not harmful, and while I don't
necessarily read
what the promos say, I respect what the person making them is
doing
and their right to do it on a forum such as NABS. After all, if
you're doing something geared toward blind teens and young
adults,
it's logical to use NABS as a sounding board to gather
interested
parties.
There's a great quote from Thumper, the bunny in Bambi, which I
believe goes something like, "If you don't got nothing nice to
say,
don't say it." I think most of the list members do well and
abide by
this, but the people who provide the put-downs, consistently
respond
negatively to other's comments, and who send inappropriate
emails on
list (and off by getting member emails and emailing to continue
the
inappropriate behaviors they start for all to see), are mostly
repeat
offenders who have left clear patterns of behavior behind in
their
emails. I'm not saying we should jump the gun and kick those
people
off, but we definitely know where to start and who to keep an
eye on
for these problems based on the past, if only we had a method
for
doing so.
On 8/15/14, Sami Osborne via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
Hi all,
I agree with everything that's been said so far.
I think that the guidelines should maybe be posted here more
often, maybe not once every month but more than maybe once every
6 months. The reason I'm saying this is because since I've
registered to this list, the guidelines have only been posted
once. I think this would be a great way for everybody to be
aware of the rules and think about what they've done if they
have
caused trouble on here.
Also, another suggestion is that when people register, after
they
submit their email address, name and password, why couldn't the
guidelines be displayed, with buttons or links for the person
would have to click on to agree or disagree? Note: if they
accidentally click "disagree," then they could be given a second
chance to click "agree," and if for the second time they click
on
"agree," then their subscription will not be taken.
About discussing opinions: I think that these kinds of
discussions are fine as long as people are not personally
insulting or attacking each other. In my opinion, if there is a
discussion going on where two people have differing opinions and
talk about their views, if it gets to the point where it starts
to get bad, these people should stop discussing their opinions.
These are just my thoughts.
Thanks,
Sami.
----- Original Message -----
From: Arielle Silverman via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
To: Antonio Guimaraes <freethaught at gmail.com>,National
Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 15:32:02 -0700
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
I agree with greater enforcement. I also think it would be nice
if
folks didn't respond to inappropriate messages on list. A
single
off-topic or obnoxious message often goes unnoticed but a huge
thread
of replies clutters inboxes and annoys people, plus rewarding
someone
who might be making an obnoxious post to glean attention. If a
post
bothers you, I suggest quietly emailing Mary and Dave Andrews so
they
can handle the offense and then quietly letting it go. If you
aren't
sure whether a message you see is inappropriate, ask the
moderators
privately. These are just my suggestions.
Arielle
On 8/14/14, Antonio Guimaraes via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
wrote:
Mary and all,
This is not the first time list etiquette and civility has
been
brought up.
People would think twice, or otherwise no longer have the
opportunity to be
inappropriate on list if there was enforcement of guidelines
which suspended
or banned people from list for violations.
I have been threatened once for one spam sent to NFBNet lists,
and I never
did it again. The specifics do not concern the NABS list and
are not
relevant to the discussion at this time, but you bet I could
have been
banned by moderators, and as stated above, would no longer
have
the chance
to polite the list in whatever way deemed inappropriate by the
moderators.
Some off topic messages to NABS irk me, but are infrequent
enough that they
don't bother me. I don't complain, hit delete ad move on.
One much example are the periodic announcements from David
about
internet
radio. It takes me a few seconds to see the topic and decide
the
announcement does not interest me. I delete, and move on with
no stress. I'm
sure David's programs are interesting to some, and I accept a
member's
self-promotion as a part of the supportive NABS community.
I am not as tolerant of messages with personal information
about
others, or
messages filled with self-disclosure on very personal and
sensitive topics.
We would be a better list if we were expected to act civilly,
stay on topic,
and so on, and be wormed, and disciplined when we do not.
Antonio
On Aug 10, 2014, at 8:55 PM, Mary Fernandez via nabs-l
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
wrote:
Good evening all,
I hope everyone's weekend was very enjoyable.
I am writing because I am deeply concerned about the manners,
or
lack
thereof, which are more and more frequently being displayed on
the
list serv. I'll quickly remind you that the list is supposed
to
be a
resource for blind students, of all ages, young professionals,
parents
and teachers. The list is "public" and "archivable", which
means that
anything we write on here is easily brought up when someone,
anyone,
conducts a Google search.
When someone inquires about software, or help with anything,
which
relates to blindness, or has a question and asks that you
contact them
off line, it does not mean that you can be disrespectful to
that
person. The list is NOT here for insults to be thrown back
and
forth,
for inappropriate comments, or for general disrespect towards
others.
So, here is my question, how can we improve communication
among
list
members? Does this list still have value, and if so what are
the
values and how to we maintain them? Let's have a discussion
about
issues and solutions. I'm probably opening a can of worms,
but
I'm
truly concerned about the tone of the messages on here, and
the
frequency with which they have been occurring. Please, be
polite and
respectful when responding to this message, and if you have
strong
feelings you do not wish to make public, simply click on my
email
address: trillian551 at gmail.com and reply to me directly.
Thank you,
Sincerely,
Your list moderator,
--
Mary Fernandez
"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people
will
forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made
them
feel."
--
Maya Angelou
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--
Kaiti
--
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a
fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
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