[nabs-l] NABS List Manners
Carly Mihalakis
carlymih at comcast.net
Sat Aug 16 17:33:13 UTC 2014
Good morning, my blind, brother Robin,
I agree! We ought to simply Send self-serving blather to the
moderators, or to the one who began this discussion in the first
place, not to the rest of us! Let's go, almighty moderators... C'mon!
for today, Car
10:23 AM 8/16/2014, Robin via nabs-l wrote:
>I suggest people, who have been contacted OffList, and were offended
>by what they perceived as "inappropriate" send and/or forward those
>EMAILS to the NABS List Moderator(s), and they can take whatever
>action they deem appropriate.
>
>Personally, I think there is a distinction between people, who
>contact others OffList, with what is perceived as "inappropriate"
>and those who contact people OffList with "invitations" to
>FaceBook/Linkedin-Twitter or some other type of Social Networking
>site. This is only my humble opinion.
>
>I also suggest ideas of "policing" the NABS List be taken OffList as
>well, and when the NABS List Moderator(s) have made their decision
>on how to rectify this situation so as not to have it occur in the
>future or reduce the likelihood that it will occur in the future,
>they then send their decision/recommendation to the NABS List.
>
>At 09:09 AM 8/16/2014, you wrote:
>>Also, just because the guy harassed Helga off-list and she replied
>>on-list, that doesn't take him out of the wrong or shift the blame for
>>what he did onto her. That was precisely why I expressed a desire to
>>have something put in place to avoid off-list issues like that,
>>because it is a problem. For all I know guys might not get the creepy
>>emails from repeat offenders and might not even have realized it was
>>happening, but that doesn't mean that since it isn't a problem for
>>you, it isn't a problem for others. Delete what you don't want to see
>>is all well and good for things like self promos which are harmless,
>>but when they cross a line we need to do something about them. Same
>>for blocking. Individuals can block the creepy email senders all they
>>want, but the person behind the issue isn't going to stop finding new
>>people to try sending stuff to unless there are consequences for them.
>>
>>Furthermore, this is a perfect example of handling disagreement. If
>>you don't think this is an issue that needs policing or don't like the
>>suggestions others have proffered, you can choose whether or not to
>>get involved in the thread. You are certainly free to have your
>>oppinions, but I took your last message as a negative slam of sorts
>>against people who feel there are major issues with conduct on the
>>list, and the suggestions they are just kicking around to see what
>>might come of them. Perhaps I read it the wrong way since we're
>>working through text alone here, but that's just the vibe I got. Case
>>and point why such an internet etiquette forum or something might be
>>useful, as tone in text verses spoken word was one of the proposed
>>topics for such a talk. Maybe it would only attract those who are
>>already cognicent of courtesy on the list, but obviously both of us
>>cared enough to jump in on this thread and got very different ideas of
>>how the previous posts were intended to sound.
>>
>>On 8/16/14, Karl Martin Adam via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> > I really don't think that "just delete what you don't want" is a
>> > sufficient response to women being sexually harassed by guys
>> > doing things like trying to trade tech help for a bra size. It
>> > is our responsibility as members of this list and the
>> > responsibility of the moderators to ensure that this is a safe
>> > place where people can post without being harassed. Maybe we
>> > can't get rid of this sort of thing completely, but that's no
>> > reason to tolerate this when it's brought to our attention.
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Littlefield, Tyler via nabs-l" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > To: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>, National
>> > Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > Date sent: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 00:21:45 -0400
>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
>> >
>> > Hello:
>> > I think this thread has gone on way to long. Firstly, the guy
>> > asked her
>> > bra size off list and she replied on list. Maybe it was not
>> > appropriate,
>> > but welcome to the internets in 2014. Just delete what you don't
>> > want.
>> >
>> > Second, you're talking about these emails for social networks
>> > like it's
>> > a huge issue. Maybe there are a few guys out there friending any
>> > girl
>> > with an email address, but usually what happens is they reply,
>> > then they
>> > say "here Facebook have my address book" and bam, everyone gets
>> > invitations. whether or not the person ment to send them.
>> >
>> > I don't know that holding confirence calls really is the way to
>> > go, just
>> > send out rule reminders every month and if there's a problem,
>> > just send
>> > it off to the admins to deal with as they see fit. Confirence
>> > calls,
>> > classes, talks, required agreements and the like are just going
>> > to be
>> > ignored by those who don't care and acknowledged for those who
>> > already
>> > acknowledge them. Forcing someone to say "I agree" to the rules
>> > is just
>> > forcing them to go through another step to register and they can
>> > still
>> > say "hey, I didn't read those rules." This also ends up taking a
>> > bit of
>> > extra work to embed in mailman, as I don't think it has this
>> > option. You
>> > do have the option of sending out monthly emails or welcome
>> > letters, at
>> > which point you could include rules, then failure to follow them
>> > can be
>> > the same results as not following the rules you have to click a
>> > button
>> > to agree, whatever that may be.
>> >
>> > I think this is getting blown out of perportion. There are spats
>> > on and
>> > off list, but if you really have a problem with someone just
>> > block them
>> > or hit delete on their messages.
>> > On 8/16/2014 12:10 AM, Kaiti Shelton via nabs-l wrote:
>> > It would also be great if somehow, we could address the issue of
>> > people taking advantage of the fact that other list members
>> > can't
>> > necessarily be anonymous and hide their emails to avoid unwanted
>> > attention off-list. I know policing such matters is
>> > impractical, but
>> > it is also kind of weird to have NABS members who I don't know
>> > practically stalking me because they want me to follow them back
>> > on
>> > Twitter, want to be a friend on facebook, want to be a
>> > connection or
>> > in my circle on Linked In or Google Plus, etc, plus send random
>> > emails
>> > to my address asking sometimes really odd questions. I think
>> > people
>> > would be less likely to jump the gun when inappropriate behavior
>> > happens on list and more apt to handle it appropriately if
>> > things like
>> > this didn't happen, as I know they happen to a fair number of
>> > people
>> > on the list. Would it be too much to put a guideline in which
>> > says
>> > something about how permission should be gained before sending a
>> > messages of a personal nature off list, or please don't friend
>> > someone
>> > on other social media outlets unless there is a mutual desire to
>> > be
>> > friends? Or, perhaps in addition to internet etiquette
>> > guidelines,
>> > there be some basic social guidelines in case some of this
>> > behavior is
>> > due to a lack of social supports outside of the internet, and
>> > the
>> > person for whatever reasons needs a bit of guidance in how to
>> > properly
>> > correspond with others so as not to come off overbearing.
>> >
>> > The bigger question is, how could this realistically be done
>> > without
>> > severely limiting intellectual conversation. Over the last few
>> > years
>> > I've gotten some very nice emails from people who wanted to
>> > respond to
>> > something I said privately, to give an honest opinion that they
>> > were
>> > too shy to put on the list for the very reason that they thought
>> > they
>> > would meet resistance or disapproval, or people who noticed
>> > things
>> > like my major and were curious for information. I wouldn't want
>> > to
>> > stifle any of these things and have actually made some good
>> > friends
>> > through some of these conversations which happened thanks to the
>> > NABS
>> > list, but it is a little weird, annoying, and a bit creepy, when
>> > some
>> > random guy won't stop sending me reminders to add him on
>> > different
>> > social media outlets, especially when they're ones I don't check
>> > or
>> > didn't really care to learn how to use after deciding I really
>> > didn't
>> > need the account, and they won't get the hint that I'm either
>> > not
>> > checking my account, am only still receiving their invitations
>> > because
>> > I haven't figured out how to block them on a site I never use,
>> > or am
>> > not interested in adding a stranger to see my personal
>> > information. I
>> > think that is a huge problem we have with the list, and
>> > especially
>> > puts a lot of the girls on here into a tricky spot because since
>> > this
>> > is all electronic, to engage by telling the person to leave you
>> > alone
>> > gives them what they want. I used the delete key a lot for
>> > dealing
>> > with these kinds of messages, but found with some the emails
>> > just keep
>> > coming even after 2 years of membership on the list.
>> >
>> > On 8/15/14, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I like Jedi's idea of having a conference call on internet
>> > etiquette,
>> > but my concern is that only those who abide by the rules already
>> > will
>> > care to show up. It could be very effective, but my gut just
>> > tells me
>> > that it would be like preaching to the choir. Unfortunately,
>> > calling
>> > individuals out who have consistently demonstrated some of the
>> > negative or disrespectful behaviors we've mentioned on this
>> > thread is
>> > probably not the way to go either, unless done so by list
>> > moderators
>> > like Mary and Dave.
>> >
>> > I still think policing is the best way to go about this, but it
>> > would
>> > be up to the moderators, and could be a huge undertaking. I
>> > like the
>> > idea of having the rules set up on a screen after subscribers
>> > complete
>> > the initial form, and am a huge fan of using I agree or I don't
>> > Agree
>> > buttons to finish the subscription process if it is feasible. I
>> > think
>> > that would make it much harder for people to just say they were
>> > ignorant of the rules because they never cared to look for them.
>> > Sure, people will skim through it and not read, but at least we
>> > can
>> > say that they broke the rules at their own disgression and had
>> > an
>> > equal opportunity to read them. Granted, I'm of the opinion
>> > that when
>> > you join a list it's your responsibility to use common etiquette
>> > and/or educate yourself on the rules and therefore we're already
>> > all
>> > equal here anyway, but obviously not everyone on the list
>> > operates
>> > that way and that's why we're having this problem to begin with.
>> >
>> > Arielle gave some great advice about when to just let a thread
>> > go and
>> > to not respond, and I echo some of Antonio's sentiments about
>> > deleting
>> > a lot of what doesn't interest you. Some of the personal
>> > promotion
>> > stuff is annoying, but not harmful, and while I don't
>> > necessarily read
>> > what the promos say, I respect what the person making them is
>> > doing
>> > and their right to do it on a forum such as NABS. After all, if
>> > you're doing something geared toward blind teens and young
>> > adults,
>> > it's logical to use NABS as a sounding board to gather
>> > interested
>> > parties.
>> >
>> > There's a great quote from Thumper, the bunny in Bambi, which I
>> > believe goes something like, "If you don't got nothing nice to
>> > say,
>> > don't say it." I think most of the list members do well and
>> > abide by
>> > this, but the people who provide the put-downs, consistently
>> > respond
>> > negatively to other's comments, and who send inappropriate
>> > emails on
>> > list (and off by getting member emails and emailing to continue
>> > the
>> > inappropriate behaviors they start for all to see), are mostly
>> > repeat
>> > offenders who have left clear patterns of behavior behind in
>> > their
>> > emails. I'm not saying we should jump the gun and kick those
>> > people
>> > off, but we definitely know where to start and who to keep an
>> > eye on
>> > for these problems based on the past, if only we had a method
>> > for
>> > doing so.
>> >
>> > On 8/15/14, Sami Osborne via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I agree with everything that's been said so far.
>> >
>> > I think that the guidelines should maybe be posted here more
>> > often, maybe not once every month but more than maybe once every
>> > 6 months. The reason I'm saying this is because since I've
>> > registered to this list, the guidelines have only been posted
>> > once. I think this would be a great way for everybody to be
>> > aware of the rules and think about what they've done if they
>> > have
>> > caused trouble on here.
>> > Also, another suggestion is that when people register, after
>> > they
>> > submit their email address, name and password, why couldn't the
>> > guidelines be displayed, with buttons or links for the person
>> > would have to click on to agree or disagree? Note: if they
>> > accidentally click "disagree," then they could be given a second
>> > chance to click "agree," and if for the second time they click
>> > on
>> > "agree," then their subscription will not be taken.
>> >
>> > About discussing opinions: I think that these kinds of
>> > discussions are fine as long as people are not personally
>> > insulting or attacking each other. In my opinion, if there is a
>> > discussion going on where two people have differing opinions and
>> > talk about their views, if it gets to the point where it starts
>> > to get bad, these people should stop discussing their opinions.
>> >
>> > These are just my thoughts.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Sami.
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Arielle Silverman via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > To: Antonio Guimaraes <freethaught at gmail.com>,National
>> > Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > Date sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 15:32:02 -0700
>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
>> >
>> > I agree with greater enforcement. I also think it would be nice
>> > if
>> > folks didn't respond to inappropriate messages on list. A
>> > single
>> > off-topic or obnoxious message often goes unnoticed but a huge
>> > thread
>> > of replies clutters inboxes and annoys people, plus rewarding
>> > someone
>> > who might be making an obnoxious post to glean attention. If a
>> > post
>> > bothers you, I suggest quietly emailing Mary and Dave Andrews so
>> > they
>> > can handle the offense and then quietly letting it go. If you
>> > aren't
>> > sure whether a message you see is inappropriate, ask the
>> > moderators
>> > privately. These are just my suggestions.
>> > Arielle
>> >
>> > On 8/14/14, Antonio Guimaraes via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > wrote:
>> > Mary and all,
>> >
>> > This is not the first time list etiquette and civility has
>> > been
>> > brought up.
>> >
>> > People would think twice, or otherwise no longer have the
>> > opportunity to be
>> > inappropriate on list if there was enforcement of guidelines
>> > which suspended
>> > or banned people from list for violations.
>> >
>> > I have been threatened once for one spam sent to NFBNet lists,
>> > and I never
>> > did it again. The specifics do not concern the NABS list and
>> > are not
>> > relevant to the discussion at this time, but you bet I could
>> > have been
>> > banned by moderators, and as stated above, would no longer
>> > have
>> > the chance
>> > to polite the list in whatever way deemed inappropriate by the
>> > moderators.
>> >
>> > Some off topic messages to NABS irk me, but are infrequent
>> > enough that they
>> > don't bother me. I don't complain, hit delete ad move on.
>> >
>> > One much example are the periodic announcements from David
>> > about
>> > internet
>> > radio. It takes me a few seconds to see the topic and decide
>> > the
>> > announcement does not interest me. I delete, and move on with
>> > no stress. I'm
>> > sure David's programs are interesting to some, and I accept a
>> > member's
>> > self-promotion as a part of the supportive NABS community.
>> >
>> > I am not as tolerant of messages with personal information
>> > about
>> > others, or
>> > messages filled with self-disclosure on very personal and
>> > sensitive topics.
>> >
>> > We would be a better list if we were expected to act civilly,
>> > stay on topic,
>> > and so on, and be wormed, and disciplined when we do not.
>> >
>> > Antonio
>> >
>> > On Aug 10, 2014, at 8:55 PM, Mary Fernandez via nabs-l
>> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Good evening all,
>> > I hope everyone's weekend was very enjoyable.
>> > I am writing because I am deeply concerned about the manners,
>> > or
>> > lack
>> > thereof, which are more and more frequently being displayed on
>> > the
>> > list serv. I'll quickly remind you that the list is supposed
>> > to
>> > be a
>> > resource for blind students, of all ages, young professionals,
>> > parents
>> > and teachers. The list is "public" and "archivable", which
>> > means that
>> > anything we write on here is easily brought up when someone,
>> > anyone,
>> > conducts a Google search.
>> > When someone inquires about software, or help with anything,
>> > which
>> > relates to blindness, or has a question and asks that you
>> > contact them
>> > off line, it does not mean that you can be disrespectful to
>> > that
>> > person. The list is NOT here for insults to be thrown back
>> > and
>> > forth,
>> > for inappropriate comments, or for general disrespect towards
>> > others.
>> > So, here is my question, how can we improve communication
>> > among
>> > list
>> > members? Does this list still have value, and if so what are
>> > the
>> > values and how to we maintain them? Let's have a discussion
>> > about
>> > issues and solutions. I'm probably opening a can of worms,
>> > but
>> > I'm
>> > truly concerned about the tone of the messages on here, and
>> > the
>> > frequency with which they have been occurring. Please, be
>> > polite and
>> > respectful when responding to this message, and if you have
>> > strong
>> > feelings you do not wish to make public, simply click on my
>> > email
>> > address: trillian551 at gmail.com and reply to me directly.
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> > Sincerely,
>> > Your list moderator,
>> >
>> > --
>> > Mary Fernandez
>> > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people
>> > will
>> > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made
>> > them
>> > feel."
>> > --
>> > Maya Angelou
>> >
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>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> > --
>> > Kaiti
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Take care,
>> > Ty
>> > http://tds-solutions.net
>> > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a
>> > fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
>> >
>> >
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>>
>>--
>>Kaiti
>>
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