[nabs-l] NABS List Manners
Joseph Hudson
jhud7789 at outlook.com
Sat Aug 16 22:10:03 UTC 2014
Hi all, I saw the message?. Both of them replied on and I was quite surprised.
On Aug 16, 2014, at 11:09 AM, Kaiti Shelton via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Also, just because the guy harassed Helga off-list and she replied
> on-list, that doesn't take him out of the wrong or shift the blame for
> what he did onto her. That was precisely why I expressed a desire to
> have something put in place to avoid off-list issues like that,
> because it is a problem. For all I know guys might not get the creepy
> emails from repeat offenders and might not even have realized it was
> happening, but that doesn't mean that since it isn't a problem for
> you, it isn't a problem for others. Delete what you don't want to see
> is all well and good for things like self promos which are harmless,
> but when they cross a line we need to do something about them. Same
> for blocking. Individuals can block the creepy email senders all they
> want, but the person behind the issue isn't going to stop finding new
> people to try sending stuff to unless there are consequences for them.
>
> Furthermore, this is a perfect example of handling disagreement. If
> you don't think this is an issue that needs policing or don't like the
> suggestions others have proffered, you can choose whether or not to
> get involved in the thread. You are certainly free to have your
> oppinions, but I took your last message as a negative slam of sorts
> against people who feel there are major issues with conduct on the
> list, and the suggestions they are just kicking around to see what
> might come of them. Perhaps I read it the wrong way since we're
> working through text alone here, but that's just the vibe I got. Case
> and point why such an internet etiquette forum or something might be
> useful, as tone in text verses spoken word was one of the proposed
> topics for such a talk. Maybe it would only attract those who are
> already cognicent of courtesy on the list, but obviously both of us
> cared enough to jump in on this thread and got very different ideas of
> how the previous posts were intended to sound.
>
> On 8/16/14, Karl Martin Adam via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I really don't think that "just delete what you don't want" is a
>> sufficient response to women being sexually harassed by guys
>> doing things like trying to trade tech help for a bra size. It
>> is our responsibility as members of this list and the
>> responsibility of the moderators to ensure that this is a safe
>> place where people can post without being harassed. Maybe we
>> can't get rid of this sort of thing completely, but that's no
>> reason to tolerate this when it's brought to our attention.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Littlefield, Tyler via nabs-l" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> To: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>, National
>> Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 00:21:45 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
>>
>> Hello:
>> I think this thread has gone on way to long. Firstly, the guy
>> asked her
>> bra size off list and she replied on list. Maybe it was not
>> appropriate,
>> but welcome to the internets in 2014. Just delete what you don't
>> want.
>>
>> Second, you're talking about these emails for social networks
>> like it's
>> a huge issue. Maybe there are a few guys out there friending any
>> girl
>> with an email address, but usually what happens is they reply,
>> then they
>> say "here Facebook have my address book" and bam, everyone gets
>> invitations. whether or not the person ment to send them.
>>
>> I don't know that holding confirence calls really is the way to
>> go, just
>> send out rule reminders every month and if there's a problem,
>> just send
>> it off to the admins to deal with as they see fit. Confirence
>> calls,
>> classes, talks, required agreements and the like are just going
>> to be
>> ignored by those who don't care and acknowledged for those who
>> already
>> acknowledge them. Forcing someone to say "I agree" to the rules
>> is just
>> forcing them to go through another step to register and they can
>> still
>> say "hey, I didn't read those rules." This also ends up taking a
>> bit of
>> extra work to embed in mailman, as I don't think it has this
>> option. You
>> do have the option of sending out monthly emails or welcome
>> letters, at
>> which point you could include rules, then failure to follow them
>> can be
>> the same results as not following the rules you have to click a
>> button
>> to agree, whatever that may be.
>>
>> I think this is getting blown out of perportion. There are spats
>> on and
>> off list, but if you really have a problem with someone just
>> block them
>> or hit delete on their messages.
>> On 8/16/2014 12:10 AM, Kaiti Shelton via nabs-l wrote:
>> It would also be great if somehow, we could address the issue of
>> people taking advantage of the fact that other list members
>> can't
>> necessarily be anonymous and hide their emails to avoid unwanted
>> attention off-list. I know policing such matters is
>> impractical, but
>> it is also kind of weird to have NABS members who I don't know
>> practically stalking me because they want me to follow them back
>> on
>> Twitter, want to be a friend on facebook, want to be a
>> connection or
>> in my circle on Linked In or Google Plus, etc, plus send random
>> emails
>> to my address asking sometimes really odd questions. I think
>> people
>> would be less likely to jump the gun when inappropriate behavior
>> happens on list and more apt to handle it appropriately if
>> things like
>> this didn't happen, as I know they happen to a fair number of
>> people
>> on the list. Would it be too much to put a guideline in which
>> says
>> something about how permission should be gained before sending a
>> messages of a personal nature off list, or please don't friend
>> someone
>> on other social media outlets unless there is a mutual desire to
>> be
>> friends? Or, perhaps in addition to internet etiquette
>> guidelines,
>> there be some basic social guidelines in case some of this
>> behavior is
>> due to a lack of social supports outside of the internet, and
>> the
>> person for whatever reasons needs a bit of guidance in how to
>> properly
>> correspond with others so as not to come off overbearing.
>>
>> The bigger question is, how could this realistically be done
>> without
>> severely limiting intellectual conversation. Over the last few
>> years
>> I've gotten some very nice emails from people who wanted to
>> respond to
>> something I said privately, to give an honest opinion that they
>> were
>> too shy to put on the list for the very reason that they thought
>> they
>> would meet resistance or disapproval, or people who noticed
>> things
>> like my major and were curious for information. I wouldn't want
>> to
>> stifle any of these things and have actually made some good
>> friends
>> through some of these conversations which happened thanks to the
>> NABS
>> list, but it is a little weird, annoying, and a bit creepy, when
>> some
>> random guy won't stop sending me reminders to add him on
>> different
>> social media outlets, especially when they're ones I don't check
>> or
>> didn't really care to learn how to use after deciding I really
>> didn't
>> need the account, and they won't get the hint that I'm either
>> not
>> checking my account, am only still receiving their invitations
>> because
>> I haven't figured out how to block them on a site I never use,
>> or am
>> not interested in adding a stranger to see my personal
>> information. I
>> think that is a huge problem we have with the list, and
>> especially
>> puts a lot of the girls on here into a tricky spot because since
>> this
>> is all electronic, to engage by telling the person to leave you
>> alone
>> gives them what they want. I used the delete key a lot for
>> dealing
>> with these kinds of messages, but found with some the emails
>> just keep
>> coming even after 2 years of membership on the list.
>>
>> On 8/15/14, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I like Jedi's idea of having a conference call on internet
>> etiquette,
>> but my concern is that only those who abide by the rules already
>> will
>> care to show up. It could be very effective, but my gut just
>> tells me
>> that it would be like preaching to the choir. Unfortunately,
>> calling
>> individuals out who have consistently demonstrated some of the
>> negative or disrespectful behaviors we've mentioned on this
>> thread is
>> probably not the way to go either, unless done so by list
>> moderators
>> like Mary and Dave.
>>
>> I still think policing is the best way to go about this, but it
>> would
>> be up to the moderators, and could be a huge undertaking. I
>> like the
>> idea of having the rules set up on a screen after subscribers
>> complete
>> the initial form, and am a huge fan of using I agree or I don't
>> Agree
>> buttons to finish the subscription process if it is feasible. I
>> think
>> that would make it much harder for people to just say they were
>> ignorant of the rules because they never cared to look for them.
>> Sure, people will skim through it and not read, but at least we
>> can
>> say that they broke the rules at their own disgression and had
>> an
>> equal opportunity to read them. Granted, I'm of the opinion
>> that when
>> you join a list it's your responsibility to use common etiquette
>> and/or educate yourself on the rules and therefore we're already
>> all
>> equal here anyway, but obviously not everyone on the list
>> operates
>> that way and that's why we're having this problem to begin with.
>>
>> Arielle gave some great advice about when to just let a thread
>> go and
>> to not respond, and I echo some of Antonio's sentiments about
>> deleting
>> a lot of what doesn't interest you. Some of the personal
>> promotion
>> stuff is annoying, but not harmful, and while I don't
>> necessarily read
>> what the promos say, I respect what the person making them is
>> doing
>> and their right to do it on a forum such as NABS. After all, if
>> you're doing something geared toward blind teens and young
>> adults,
>> it's logical to use NABS as a sounding board to gather
>> interested
>> parties.
>>
>> There's a great quote from Thumper, the bunny in Bambi, which I
>> believe goes something like, "If you don't got nothing nice to
>> say,
>> don't say it." I think most of the list members do well and
>> abide by
>> this, but the people who provide the put-downs, consistently
>> respond
>> negatively to other's comments, and who send inappropriate
>> emails on
>> list (and off by getting member emails and emailing to continue
>> the
>> inappropriate behaviors they start for all to see), are mostly
>> repeat
>> offenders who have left clear patterns of behavior behind in
>> their
>> emails. I'm not saying we should jump the gun and kick those
>> people
>> off, but we definitely know where to start and who to keep an
>> eye on
>> for these problems based on the past, if only we had a method
>> for
>> doing so.
>>
>> On 8/15/14, Sami Osborne via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I agree with everything that's been said so far.
>>
>> I think that the guidelines should maybe be posted here more
>> often, maybe not once every month but more than maybe once every
>> 6 months. The reason I'm saying this is because since I've
>> registered to this list, the guidelines have only been posted
>> once. I think this would be a great way for everybody to be
>> aware of the rules and think about what they've done if they
>> have
>> caused trouble on here.
>> Also, another suggestion is that when people register, after
>> they
>> submit their email address, name and password, why couldn't the
>> guidelines be displayed, with buttons or links for the person
>> would have to click on to agree or disagree? Note: if they
>> accidentally click "disagree," then they could be given a second
>> chance to click "agree," and if for the second time they click
>> on
>> "agree," then their subscription will not be taken.
>>
>> About discussing opinions: I think that these kinds of
>> discussions are fine as long as people are not personally
>> insulting or attacking each other. In my opinion, if there is a
>> discussion going on where two people have differing opinions and
>> talk about their views, if it gets to the point where it starts
>> to get bad, these people should stop discussing their opinions.
>>
>> These are just my thoughts.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Sami.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Arielle Silverman via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> To: Antonio Guimaraes <freethaught at gmail.com>,National
>> Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 15:32:02 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
>>
>> I agree with greater enforcement. I also think it would be nice
>> if
>> folks didn't respond to inappropriate messages on list. A
>> single
>> off-topic or obnoxious message often goes unnoticed but a huge
>> thread
>> of replies clutters inboxes and annoys people, plus rewarding
>> someone
>> who might be making an obnoxious post to glean attention. If a
>> post
>> bothers you, I suggest quietly emailing Mary and Dave Andrews so
>> they
>> can handle the offense and then quietly letting it go. If you
>> aren't
>> sure whether a message you see is inappropriate, ask the
>> moderators
>> privately. These are just my suggestions.
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 8/14/14, Antonio Guimaraes via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> wrote:
>> Mary and all,
>>
>> This is not the first time list etiquette and civility has
>> been
>> brought up.
>>
>> People would think twice, or otherwise no longer have the
>> opportunity to be
>> inappropriate on list if there was enforcement of guidelines
>> which suspended
>> or banned people from list for violations.
>>
>> I have been threatened once for one spam sent to NFBNet lists,
>> and I never
>> did it again. The specifics do not concern the NABS list and
>> are not
>> relevant to the discussion at this time, but you bet I could
>> have been
>> banned by moderators, and as stated above, would no longer
>> have
>> the chance
>> to polite the list in whatever way deemed inappropriate by the
>> moderators.
>>
>> Some off topic messages to NABS irk me, but are infrequent
>> enough that they
>> don't bother me. I don't complain, hit delete ad move on.
>>
>> One much example are the periodic announcements from David
>> about
>> internet
>> radio. It takes me a few seconds to see the topic and decide
>> the
>> announcement does not interest me. I delete, and move on with
>> no stress. I'm
>> sure David's programs are interesting to some, and I accept a
>> member's
>> self-promotion as a part of the supportive NABS community.
>>
>> I am not as tolerant of messages with personal information
>> about
>> others, or
>> messages filled with self-disclosure on very personal and
>> sensitive topics.
>>
>> We would be a better list if we were expected to act civilly,
>> stay on topic,
>> and so on, and be wormed, and disciplined when we do not.
>>
>> Antonio
>>
>> On Aug 10, 2014, at 8:55 PM, Mary Fernandez via nabs-l
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> wrote:
>>
>> Good evening all,
>> I hope everyone's weekend was very enjoyable.
>> I am writing because I am deeply concerned about the manners,
>> or
>> lack
>> thereof, which are more and more frequently being displayed on
>> the
>> list serv. I'll quickly remind you that the list is supposed
>> to
>> be a
>> resource for blind students, of all ages, young professionals,
>> parents
>> and teachers. The list is "public" and "archivable", which
>> means that
>> anything we write on here is easily brought up when someone,
>> anyone,
>> conducts a Google search.
>> When someone inquires about software, or help with anything,
>> which
>> relates to blindness, or has a question and asks that you
>> contact them
>> off line, it does not mean that you can be disrespectful to
>> that
>> person. The list is NOT here for insults to be thrown back
>> and
>> forth,
>> for inappropriate comments, or for general disrespect towards
>> others.
>> So, here is my question, how can we improve communication
>> among
>> list
>> members? Does this list still have value, and if so what are
>> the
>> values and how to we maintain them? Let's have a discussion
>> about
>> issues and solutions. I'm probably opening a can of worms,
>> but
>> I'm
>> truly concerned about the tone of the messages on here, and
>> the
>> frequency with which they have been occurring. Please, be
>> polite and
>> respectful when responding to this message, and if you have
>> strong
>> feelings you do not wish to make public, simply click on my
>> email
>> address: trillian551 at gmail.com and reply to me directly.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Sincerely,
>> Your list moderator,
>>
>> --
>> Mary Fernandez
>> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people
>> will
>> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made
>> them
>> feel."
>> --
>> Maya Angelou
>>
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>>
>> --
>> Kaiti
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a
>> fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Kaiti
>
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