[nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

Sat Aug 29 17:44:18 UTC 2009

True Angie.  I also think it advisable to keep the harness on our guide dogs
while in flight which is why the quick release handle is a good idea.  Since
the whole point of safety briefings and over all our attitude toward it
keeping the harness on the guide means we are more prepared for an
emergency.  It is easier to quickly retrieve a handle and possibly even
attach it back on the harness than to take the time to put the entire
harness on the dog.

The Michael Hingson Group
     “Speaking with Vision”
                 Michael Hingson, President
                         (415) 827-4084
                   info at michaelhingson.com
                   www.michaelhingson.com

for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Angie Matney
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 8:46 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

This is all true. But we are talking about the ACAA, not the ADA, as far as
airlines are concerned. State laws are irrelevant also. I have to admit that
I am not as familiar with the ACAA, so I don't know if it contains the same
provisions. Even if an airline cannot legally require a service animal to
wear whatever equipment is necessary for it to do its job, I think that a
quick-release handle could provide handlers with a quick, easy way to make
things more comfortable for the dog (and the human) without causing the
problems that sometimes occur with airline staff when the entire harness is
removed.

Angie

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 10:22 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

Cindy,

Marion is correct, legally no harness is required to gain public access.  It

is the training that makes a service dog, not the equipment.

The ADA doesn't distinguish the different types of service dogs...service 
dogs for people in wheelchairs, hearing alert dogs etc. The ADA defines a 
service animal as any specially trained animal whose trained behavior 
mitigates the disability of it's handler.  A guide dog is one type of 
service animal as defined in the ADA.

A hearing alert dog doesn't need any sort of special equipment to do it's 
job.    The equipment needs of different types of service dogs  vary quite a

bit and even with the same type of service dog the equipment still varies 
with the specific needs of the handler.

All that said, I still have ethical issues with taking a guide dog into 
public places with no harness and not using the dog as a guide.

JMHO
Julie

From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at qwest.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

>I don't see how the harness cannot be required. If what you are saying is
> true, then anybody can march into anywhere without a harness. You could 
> have
> a well behaved dog, or an under achieer for a service dog, and who would
> know the difference? I don't mean to be argumentative because you may well
> know more about this than do I, but that seems like it wouldn't make 
> sense.
> No school ever told me that I had to have a harness on either; and TSE
> encourages taking the thing off when you are on the plane, especially with
> young dogs. I leave mine on because it seems so cramped to get it back on,
> specially when the flights I have are so close together.
>
> Cindy Lou
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:09 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>
>
> Angie,
>    Do you know which airlines have such a policy? Although an airline may
> make such a policy, there is no such requirement in law. If I chose to
> travel with my dog out of harness using my white cane, the airline could 
> not
> deny me access. The harness does not make a service dog; its training 
> does.
> Some service animals do not wear harnesses and their owners still have the
> right of access with their dogs
>    Everyone needs to be aware that, even though the schools tell us
> otherwise, we are not required to have our dogs in harness in order to be
> afforded the right of access with them. There is nothing in the Federal 
> law
> requiring a service animal be harnessed. In spite of the fact that some
> state laws require this, such laws are unenforceable.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:31 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] Quick-release handles: was Air Charters and the extra 
> seat
>
>
>> Wayne,
>>
>> This kind of experience is one reason I hope The Seeing Eye will consider
>> ways to provide us with quick-release handles. If we can simply remove 
>> the
>> harness handle, it will easily fit in the space between a window seat and
>> the inside wall of the plane. This will allow both the human and dog to
>> enjoy more room while they fly, while reducing the chances that a flight
>> attendant would seek to remove the harness from the dog's owner.
>>
>> Also, some airline policies state that the dog must remain in harness at
>> all
>> times. If we had a quick-release handle, we could comply with such
>> policies
>> while gaining a bit more leg/dog room.
>>
>> I don't know how you feel about quick-release handles, but if you agree
>> with
>> me, I hope you will consider relating this experience to someone at 
>> Seeing
>> Eye as a reason to consider quick-release handles.
>>
>> Angie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Wayne Merritt
>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:15 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>
>> I think he's referring to a part of airline history in the eighties
>> where the airlines tried to take or in some cases took canes away from
>> blind people, claiming that they were dangerous and could fly up and
>> hit someone if something were to happen to the plane. Though I missed
>> this part of airline history in my travels, I've still been asked a
>> few times by flight attendants to give up my cane. I even explained to
>> one persont that the cane was securely between my window seat and the
>> inside wall of the plane; in other words, it wasn't going anywhere.
>> I'm sad to say that I have been pushed into giving up my cane, with
>> the flight attendant in question assuring me that she would put my
>> cane in the closet at the front of the plane during the flight, but
>> this has happened a very few times, thankfully.
>>
>> I did have one similar experience in my recent Florida travels, when
>> they were trying to acccommodate my seating arrangement on one of
>> those smaller express jets, where I had to give up my dog's harness. I
>> chose not to make an issue of it since I was able to get a seat with
>> potentially more room in the first class area, though we are still
>> talking of those smaller jets. I was reminded of of the incidents of
>> giving up canes though and wondered if giving up a harness was
>> similar. Sadly, it does sound familiar to me. I was able to get the
>> harness back when leaving the plane, but I still felt like something
>> was violated by having to give up the harness. I tried to show the
>> flight attendant that it was secure against the wall of the plane, but
>> no dice. Thoughts?
>>
>> Hth,
>> Wayne
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
n.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40qwest.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream.
net
> 

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail.
com

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/info%40michaelhingson
..com