[nagdu] "service dog" or not.

Sat Aug 29 20:30:06 UTC 2009

Mike,
    Let me take a non-legal stab at your questions. If I use my guide dog to 
access the services of a public accomodation, such as a beach and, while I 
am there allow my dog to run free, asuming this is not prohibited, I see no 
reason why i should be subjected to the requirements of a pet tag. I am of 
the opinion that the pet tags are required for access to the beach where 
such access would normally be restricted by these dogs. My dog is not 
restricted from such access, so no requirements can be imposed to gain such 
access. If, on the other hand, no dog is allowed to run free, I cannot use 
my dogs status as a service animal to gain special treatment.
    As for the question of whether or not I might have any recourse under 
state laws that protect service animals from attack by people or other 
animals when I go to a pet park, this question would depend upon whether the 
laws are criminal or not. To the best of my knowledge, states in which such 
laws have been passed are criminal laws. as such, in order to bring charges 
under these laws, one of the elements that would need to be proven is 
whether there was criminal intent. The dog that attacks cannot have criminal 
intent, for such intent requires that the person/animal knows that the 
animal is a service animal and intended to cause harm.
    As for your question about the service snake, as wild animals, snakes 
cannot be "trained" only "tamed". therefore, there will never be such a 
thing as a service snake, lizard, or any other wild animal. Likewise, an 
animal that only "alerts" someone to the possible onset of a seizure is not 
a service animal, as such an ability is innate, not trained. If, however, 
the animal is trained to perform some specific tasks, such as clearing an 
area around the person, placing a pillow under the head, activating a 
medical alert signal, etc., then the animal is a service animal under the 
ADA. Similarly, if someone has trained their dog to retrieve dropped items 
and this person, under the definition of the ADA, is a qualified person with 
a disability, such a person has the right to be accompanied by such a 
service animal. It is important to note that the burden of proof that a 
person is a "qualified person with a disability" rests upon the person 
claiming protection under the ADA.
    As you stated, I would like to hear from one of our legal experts on 
these questions! I am always interested in furthering my understanding of 
the law in an effort to better assist  those who come to me for assistance.

Fraternally yours,
Marion

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:31 AM
Subject: [nagdu] "service dog" or not.

Hi all,

I would love to hear from Craig Bourne or some legal expert speak to this
topic.  I think Marion may be sort of technically correct, but training
alone cannot make a "service dog" a "service dog".

For example, given the discussion of a few weeks ago if I allow my guide dog
to run uncontrolled on a beach can I invoke the fact that it is a "service
dog" if an official suddenly demands that I pay a fee for the dog to be on
the beach.  I think I as a blind guide dog user would have a difficult time
getting out of paying such a fee since the dog is no longer under my direct
control and it is not being used as a "service dog".

Or try this one.  If I take my guide to a dog park where I let her run free
and she is attacked by other dogs in the part can I invoke a dog attack law
which provides for penalties concerning attacking a "service animal"?  I
think anyone attempting to do such would have a very difficult time
collecting for damages.

Finally, this whole discussion bring to the forefront the entire issue of
support animals.  "Oh, my snake has learned to warn me of seizures", or "of
course this is a service animal which has been trained to help me pick up
items as I cannot bend over to do that for myself".

Having a harness does not in of itself make a dog a "service dog".  Likewise
just because we say a dog is trained or even if it has been trained by a
school it is not a service dog unless we use it as such.  We live in a world
where we need to think realisticly.  I think that if case law develops
addressing these issues we will find that training alone may not be enough
in certain situations.  I don't like that as training should be enough so
long as I am using my dog appropriately.

Best,

Mike Hingson

The Michael Hingson Group
"Speaking with Vision"
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
www.michaelhingson.com

for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 5:09 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

Angie,
    Do you know which airlines have such a policy? Although an airline may
make such a policy, there is no such requirement in law. If I chose to
travel with my dog out of harness using my white cane, the airline could not

deny me access. The harness does not make a service dog; its training does.
Some service animals do not wear harnesses and their owners still have the
right of access with their dogs
    Everyone needs to be aware that, even though the schools tell us
otherwise, we are not required to have our dogs in harness in order to be
afforded the right of access with them. There is nothing in the Federal law
requiring a service animal be harnessed. In spite of the fact that some
state laws require this, such laws are unenforceable.

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:31 AM
Subject: [nagdu] Quick-release handles: was Air Charters and the extra seat

> Wayne,
>
> This kind of experience is one reason I hope The Seeing Eye will consider
> ways to provide us with quick-release handles. If we can simply remove the
> harness handle, it will easily fit in the space between a window seat and
> the inside wall of the plane. This will allow both the human and dog to
> enjoy more room while they fly, while reducing the chances that a flight
> attendant would seek to remove the harness from the dog's owner.
>
> Also, some airline policies state that the dog must remain in harness at
> all
> times. If we had a quick-release handle, we could comply with such
> policies
> while gaining a bit more leg/dog room.
>
> I don't know how you feel about quick-release handles, but if you agree
> with
> me, I hope you will consider relating this experience to someone at Seeing
> Eye as a reason to consider quick-release handles.
>
> Angie
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Wayne Merritt
> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:15 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>
> I think he's referring to a part of airline history in the eighties
> where the airlines tried to take or in some cases took canes away from
> blind people, claiming that they were dangerous and could fly up and
> hit someone if something were to happen to the plane. Though I missed
> this part of airline history in my travels, I've still been asked a
> few times by flight attendants to give up my cane. I even explained to
> one persont that the cane was securely between my window seat and the
> inside wall of the plane; in other words, it wasn't going anywhere.
> I'm sad to say that I have been pushed into giving up my cane, with
> the flight attendant in question assuring me that she would put my
> cane in the closet at the front of the plane during the flight, but
> this has happened a very few times, thankfully.
>
> I did have one similar experience in my recent Florida travels, when
> they were trying to acccommodate my seating arrangement on one of
> those smaller express jets, where I had to give up my dog's harness. I
> chose not to make an issue of it since I was able to get a seat with
> potentially more room in the first class area, though we are still
> talking of those smaller jets. I was reminded of of the incidents of
> giving up canes though and wondered if giving up a harness was
> similar. Sadly, it does sound familiar to me. I was able to get the
> harness back when leaving the plane, but I still felt like something
> was violated by having to give up the harness. I tried to show the
> flight attendant that it was secure against the wall of the plane, but
> no dice. Thoughts?
>
> Hth,
> Wayne
>
>
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