[nagdu] Who's in charge!

Ann Edie annedie at nycap.rr.com
Wed Dec 9 21:10:41 UTC 2009 

Hi, All,

Training is definitely a 2-way street.  In fact, whenever two living beings 
are interacting, they are training each other.  Dogs are very good, both as 
a species and individually, at learning how to get us to give them what they 
want, whether that is food, play, patting and physical closeness, or 
whatever.  And they are very good at reinforcing us when we produce what 
they want; They eagerly eat the food that we set down for them--Have you 
ever noticed how annoying and frustrating it is to prepare food for an 
animal or a human, for that matter, and to then have the recipient reject 
it--Bummer! Punishment indeed!  They look so cute when we give them a treat; 
they wag their tails when we talk to them or play with them; they roll over 
on their backs and make funny noises which make us laugh when we let them up 
on the bed.  They never fail to use reinforcement to keep the behaviors 
strong in us that satisfy their needs and wants.

There's nothing wrong with noticing and willingly participating in the 2-way 
training conversation.  In fact, it's the way relationships are built and 
maintained.  For example, it could be said that I have Panda trained to 
stand quietly at the back of her little stall before I put down her food in 
the front corner.  But it could be equally truly said that Panda has me 
trained to deliver her food when she stands quietly in the back corner of 
her stall.  It could also be said that I have Panda trained to perform guide 
behaviors for me such as stopping at curbs or showing me where the steps 
are.  But from her point of view, I'll bet that she thinks that she has me 
trained to click and treat whenever she stops at a curb or shows me where 
the steps are.

The problem comes when we don't realize exactly what behaviors we are 
reinforcing and therefore causing to occur more often in the future.  For 
example, the parent who lets the toddler whine and beg for 15 minutes for 
the toy or candy in the store, and then gives in and buys what the child 
wants, just to get a little peace, has just taught the child that it must 
whine and beg for at least 15 minutes in order to get the desired result. 
When the child gets the desired toy or snack, he rewards the parent by 
quieting down, which strengthens the parent's behavior of giving in to his 
demands.  So it's not so much a matter of who is training whom; it's more a 
matter of whether one is in fact training the other to perform a behavior 
that he will actually want repeated in the long term as opposed to just 
taking action to react to an immediate situation.  That's not to say that we 
always make the right training choices.  Of course, we make mistakes.  But 
if we understand that all interactions between living beings result in 
training, then we will realize when we have inadvertently trained something 
that we don't necessarily want in the long term.  If we realize that we have 
dug ourselves a little training hole, then we can devise a training plan to 
get us out of the hole and to get a result that we prefer, without getting 
mad at the other being for just being responsive to our training.

Some say that cats are the best trainers of humans, but I don't know, I 
think both horses and dogs are very observant and clever trainers of their 
humans.

Best,
Ann

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:22 AM
Subject: [nagdu] Who's in charge!


> Tami,
> Yes, I know I'm not supposed to admit it, but it's just too obvious! 
> <grin>
> One time a trainer came from TSE to give me a hand with something, and she
> said "Who's in charge here!"  Meaning to jazz me up and make me ferocious
> or something, I guess.  But I just laughed, because I know the answer all
> too well.
>
> Not that Bubba is wild and totally out of control.  But he does know how
> to get his way.
> Tracy
>
>
>> Tracy,
>>
>> That may be true, but you're not supposed to admit it!  /grin/
>>
>> I am not sure how Mitzi got to be such a good guide dog.  I do know she
>> has
>> me very well trained, though.
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Tracy Carcione
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 7:06 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] tripping on bones
>>
>> "Don't Shoot the Dog" is available from Bookshare.
>>
>> It seems to me to rely very heavily on seeing what is happening, though.
>>
>> Or maybe the problem is that Ben is smarter than I am, so he has trained
>> me, instead of the other way around.
>> Tracy
>>
>>> Rox!  I'm surprised that you, of all people,  suggest a P- solution to
>>> the
>>> problem of inconveniently abandoned shoes!
>>>
>>> Albert, for a more "positive reinforcement-type solution--you might
>>> simply
>>> try to notice the rare occasions when he tosses his shoes in the
>>> direction
>>> of where you would like them to land, and immediately reward him with
>>> something he really likes.  You don't even have to tell him what the
>>> reward
>>> is for; let him figure it out.  (This is the "sneaky" method.)
>>> Or, for a more straightforward approach, you could identify the place
>>> where
>>> you want him to put the shoes, and reward him immediately whenever the
>>> shoes
>>> hit that spot.  In order for you to know when the shoes have "hit the
>>> spot,"
>>> you might want to have some sort of sound-producing device that will let
>>> you
>>> know that the shoes have landed on the spot!
>>>
>>> For tips on training all sorts of beings, Karen Pryor's book, "Don't
>>> Shoot
>>> the Dog" is still one of the best resources, and very readable.
>>>
>>> Have fun training!
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Ann
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "The Pawpower Pack" <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 12:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] tripping on bones
>>>
>>>
>>>> Albert,
>>>>
>>>> next time he does it, just hide the shoes.  He'll learn quick!
>>>>
>>>> My dogs also hide stuff outside.  My current working guide, Laveau a
>>>> Doberman loves her harness, she will take it to her bed and snuggle
>>>> with
>>>> it until it is time to go to work again.  I have to put it up  high so
>>>> she'll leave it alone.  The other day I was getting ready to  throw my
>>>> harness in the wash and set it down to collect more laundry.   In a
>>>> flash
>>>> she stole it and hid it.  I had to send my golden in to  find it, which
>>>> she did.  Mill'E, my golden keeps me organized.  If I  didn't have her
>>>> I'd
>>>> be in a lot of trouble! *grin*
>>>>
>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you
>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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