[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

Thu Dec 31 22:29:27 UTC 2009

Julie,

As The definition of a service animal stands, it makes sense as presented,
that a dog in training is not by definition a service animal until such time
as it graduates as it were  or is given to a handler to perform trained
tasks and or services.  Then as you stated  a dog in training is also
covered under these same protections  as afforded  under the ADA and FHA and
such protections are further reinforced as is found time to time in any
number of states. So, dogs in training which as I had always understood  to
be the case are protected as such and are afforded public access during such
trainings. Where  I would appreciate your help in clarifying a discussion
point is the present legislative effort to include certification in the mix.
As I understood the issue there is concern about adding the word certified
or that a trainer be certified  not so much that a dog be certified per say.
Would you help me understand the position of why this has caused such alarm,
how it would raise our taxes if trainers were held to a measure such as
certification, which I would hope would not be determined by individual
schools, but by seasoned professionals and end users  with vested interests
in the well being of mobility issues for those of us who rely on properly
trained guides if we choose not to self train. Then too, how would
certification be passed on to us in any cost at all if such a measure were
passed.   You see, I like you, am of the position and have confirmed
independently and now as you stated here, that dogs in training are
protected under the ADA. Why is certification  of trainers such a hot topic?

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."

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-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 2:23 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

Tami,

This is incorrect:
*Also, service dogs in training are already covered in the ADA and (I think)
FHA.  As an owner-trainer, I had the same rights I do as a handler.*

The ADA is a civil rights law.  It guarantees disabled Americans the right 
to equal access, which includes the right to utilize a service animal.  The 
definition of a service animal is one that has been individually trained 
tasks that serve to mitigate the handler's disability.  A service dog in 
training has not been trained to mitigate the disability of it's handler, 
does not meet the definition and therefore cannot legally accompany the 
disabled handler into public places.

Now, as an owner trainer I can tell you that I have always taken my dogs 
into public places before they were fully trained.  You have to or they will

never get fully trained.  Fortunately my state has additional laws to cover 
service dogs in training.  If I didn't have those I would need to train in 
only pet friendly places or ask permission at each place.

Owner trainers only have the same access rights once the dog has been 
trained to perform tasks that mitigate the handlers disability.  Of course 
you could certainly train some very basic tasks to gain the level of service

dog to be able to have public access.  then when in public places train the 
rest.

I hope that makes sense.
Julie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

> Steve,
>
> I agree!
>
> Also, service dogs in training are already covered in the ADA and (I 
> think)
> FHA.  As an owner-trainer, I had the same rights I do as a handler.  Also,
> the same responsibilities.  Including the responsibility for my own 
> safety,
> her safety and that of others.
>
> Someone mentioned socialization apart from training...  For a service
> animal, socialization *is* pat of the training.  True, you do a lot of
> ground work and obedience and exposure to people, kids, critters, 
> everybody
> and everything you can while the dog is young.  But sooner or later, you
> have to take your pup into the milieus in which it will be working as an
> adult.  A lot of those milieux are pretty high stimulus, let me tell you!
> But the dog needs to learn to walk by the meat counter at the grocery 
> store
> without trying to snag a snack along the way!  There are some early 
> training
> techniques I'm going to use next time to cut down on potential scavenging,
> but a dog is still a dog.  /smile/
>
> Anyway, with Mitzi I did what the guide dog schools do:  I used PR when it
> was time to take my wild and woolly one into the stores in our 
> neighborhood.
> I would explain that I was training her, that I needed to work with her in
> stores, and I assured them that I would take her out immediately if she 
> got
> out of hand and would pay for any damage.  It was a ridiculously
> dog-friendly neighborhood, which helped.  /grin/  The fact that my little
> beast had *no* training until she came to me at the age of 7 months 
> didn't!
> Next time, I am starting with a baby puppy so I can start civilizing it
> while it's young and impressionable.  /smile/
>
> Still, we worked on it together so that she could learn to deal with the
> overstimulation of it all, and now she's an old pro who can take me 
> shopping
> and dining and traveling without a hitch.  Well, I still feel a bit 
> nervous
> about that scavenging nose in restaurants, but it seems to be staying 
> where
> it belongs!  Actually, it's never gotten too far out of bounds, but I know
> my dog!  It used to terrify me that I would have to buy someone's meal
> because my dog tried to help herself to it.  I would just have died if 
> that
> had happened!  /grin/
>
> Anyway, I just say "no!" to legislatively required certification, 
> especially
> when it comes to service animals for the disabled.  The whole issue is 
> just
> too fraught, and the people it is meant to protect will be the ones who 
> get
> the short end of the stick!
>
> As for unscrupulous, unqualified trainers of service dogs for others....
> Well, changing the access laws to require that they show certification to
> take a trainee on a bus will just mean they don't train the dogs to 
> travel,
> right?  If someone is going to bilk a distressed clientele to begin with,
> they can't be too long on character or concern for others.  Or is that 
> just
> my prejudices showing?
>
> Tami Smith-Kinne
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Steve Johnson
> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 11:24 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Well stated Rox.
>
> The other issue is cost, and this idea of certification will have a price.
> Unless legislation has direct input from an organization like the NFB for
> instance, it has the potential to be that between the constituent and the
> legislator and honestly, that leaves the door wide open for 
> interpretation.
> Tell me the last legislator who knew the difference between a guide from a
> formal agency or one that was self-trained?  Take it one step further, 
> tell
> me a legislator who knows the difference between the different dog guide
> agency names, or what they are actually trained to do?  My point, is that
> they don't have a clue, and if they really want to do something 
> impressive,
> don't run again.
>
>
> JMO
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "The Pawpower Pack" <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
>> and who certifies the trainers?
>>
>> There is no certifying body for dog trainers.  If I want to call
>> myself a dog trainer, I can.  There are outfits like CPDT who are
>> trying to certify pet dog trainers but it's all voluntary.  The guide
>> and service dogs, with the exception of California, may "certify"
>> their trainers but it's about as valuable as the paper it's printed on.
>>
>> California "certifies" it's trainers but frankly, I would hate to see
>> an outfit like the California guide dog board become the norm.
>>
>> I also think it's a step awy from certifying trainers to certifying PWD.
>>
>>
>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you
>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>> -- Coretta Scott King
>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>
>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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