[nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader

Wed Mar 4 21:38:27 UTC 2009

Rebecca,
    The point of the narrative is that we, as consumers, should choose 
schools that transfer ownership upon graduation. This incident could have 
been from any school, since the school that was involved actually had 
transferred ownership and, therefore, could only repossess the harnesses. 
Since ownership of the harnesses is the policy of all schools, the lesson is 
to purchase your own harness and to help us press for ownership of dog and 
gear. In this way, we can be free from arbitrary, paternalistic 
interference. Again, if we cannot be responsible enough to care for our 
dogs, how can we be responsible enough to care for our children? We would 
object to any jurisdiction that would take our children away from us or 
interfere in the way we raise our children simply because we are blind. Why, 
then, do we not object to this sort of custodialism?

Fraternally,
Marion


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (IT)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader


> Care to share the name of the school?
> If this was any other business, then its name would not and should not
> be shileded.
> Why shield thename of the school?
> I think I know the name of the school, but you weer more involved in
> this process then I ever was.
> If we are indeed consumers, why not share the name of the school so all
> know and can make their own decisions?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 4:48 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>
> Rebecca,
>    No matter what "the school's side" of the story may be, absent any
> third party objective evidence of abuse or neglect, no school should
> have this much influence over the lives of a graduate. In addition,
> without ownership, these sorts of arbitrary decisions could have an even
> worse effect. The school could not repossess the dogs because the
> handlers had ownership. At the same time, the school, retaining
> ownership of the harness, did exert their influence by taking the
> harnesses. In my opinion, such influence is custodial and paternalistic.
> They had no evidence on which to act and didn't need any. It is a lesson
> to anyone who thinks that a school that does not transfer ownership
> would not act in an arbitrary, heavy-handed manner.
>
> fraternally,
> Marion
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (IT)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 2:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>
>
>>I think those of us who have been on this list know which school you're
>> talking about.
>> And, it doesn't matter.
>> What I'd be most interested to see though is the school or any
> school's
>> side of this story.
>> Anybody want to take a stab at it?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Marion & Martin
>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:03 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>>
>> Dear Ron and All,
>>    The problem with a school retaining ownership is the holding of
> this
>> fact over the heads of the user. In many cases, graduates who do not
>> have ownership are hesitant to ask for help when needed, thus
>> compromising the integrity of the team due to training or behavioral
>> issues. Furthermore, handlers who do not own their dogs have little
>> recourse should the school decide to repossess the dog and the schools
>> need no justification for this action. Lest anyone think a school
> would
>> not do such a thing, I will share a real example of this occuring.
>>    I advocated for a couple in Florida who were very outspoken and,
>> because of this, made a few adversaries. Several of these adversaries
>> filed complaints against the couple, charging that their dogs were out
>> of control and were being abused. One of the complaintants was a guide
>> dog user who worked for the state agency for the blind where each
> member
>> of the couple was engaged in rehabilitation. This person's dog was
>> agressive toward the wife's dog and the dog naturally defended itself.
>> This state employee contacted the school and asserted that the wife's
>> dog was the agressor and had been aggressive toward other dogs at the
>> rehabilitation center. The complaintant also stated that the wife had
>> been barred from bringing her dog to the rehab center. This latter
> fact
>> was absolutely false and the complaintant was disciplined by the
> agency
>> for saying this.
>>    The school sent a trainer to visit the couple and their case notes
>> state that the trainer spent "two or three hours" with the graduate.
> The
>> first thing I thought when I read this entry was "Did the trainer
> spend
>> two or three hours with the person?" In any case, the graduate asserts
>> that the trainer spent about ten minutes with her and that most of the
>> time the trainer was on the telephone. In any case, the school sent
>> another trainer to "investigate". The traner went door-to-door in the
>> couple's apartment complex questioning neighbors about the allegations
>> of abuse. Finding no one who would coroborate the abuse alleged by
> only
>> one neighbor who the wife said observed her correct her dog after it
>> became distracted and ran her into a trash can on the sidewalk, the
>> school contacted Animal Services to investigate the claims of abuse
> and
>> neglect.
>>    The Animal Services officer - a sworn law enforcement officer -
>> investigated the charges by visiting the couple's home unannounced. He
>> told me ( and wrote in his official report) that he found the couple's
>> apartment clean and orderly, there was a bucket of water on the floor,
>> plenty of dog food, both of the dogs were well-groomed, and the female
>> dog even had its nails painted! The officer concluded that there was
> no
>> evidence of abuse or neglect and closed the case.
>>    The school sent a trainer, nonetheless, to the couple. Since the
>> couple owned their dogs, the school could not take the dogs away from
>> them; however, since the school retains ownership of the harnesses,
> they
>> took them away. In addition, the Animal Services officer who was
> present
>> when the harnesses were taken told me that the trainer was verbally
>> abusive to the couple who, in his opinion, had done absolutely nothing
>> wrong. In his own words, he said, "I arrest people every day for
> serious
>> crimes and would never treat one of them the way this couple was
>> treated!" Furthermore, the trainer went to the police department and
>> told officers that the dogs were no longer service animals, that they
>> had no right to use them as guide dogs, and that they  had no right of
>> access. When I spoke with the police department, this was confirmed;
>> however, I was told by the police department that they had no
> intention
>> of interfering with their rights of access, as this would violate both
>> Florida and Fedeeral laws.
>>    Fortunately, this couple had ownership of their dogs. The only
>> recourse the school had was to repossess their harnesses, another
> issue
>> I have with schools' policies and why I have purchased my own harness.
>> If the school had ownership, the dogs could have been taken away from
>> them in spite of the fact that there was no objective evidence of
> abuse
>> or neglect.
>>
>> Fraternally,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>> owned the dogs,
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ron Davidson" <fuzzy_1 at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:21 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>>
>>
>>>I was told that once a dog is returned it is retired or adopted out
> and
>>
>>>they do not retrain and match with another student. As far as
> ownership
>> I
>>>don't see what the big deal is if the school retains ownership for a
>> year
>>>or two years. If they feel you are abusing or not taking care of the
>> dog I
>>>would want them to take it. I have known too many people get the dog
>> and
>>>don't follow the feeding guidelines and feed table scraps etc and it
>> ruins
>>>the dogs digestive system and they will go for food left on floors of
>>>restraunts etc. To me all that does is ruin a good working dog and
> make
>> the
>>>rest of us look bad. The school I went to kept ownership for two years
>> and
>>>it was no big deal to me but everyone is different. I also was told
>> that
>>>Seeing eye gives ownership upon graduation when you pay a fee of
> 150.00
>> and
>>>this came from one of their field reps. I don't know what Leader dog
>> does I
>>>went to Guiding Eyes and was very pleased with them and their
>> follow-up.
>>>If I have a problem I gave them a call and we solved it over the phone
>> or a
>>>field trainer would come down if serious enough. I know everyone has
>> their
>>>own preference of schools just like me and this is just my opinion.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40ve
>> rizon.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%
>> 40ngc.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40ve
> rizon.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%
> 40ngc.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizon.net