[nagdu] vet reports/was/Re: TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison

Sun May 17 20:01:15 UTC 2009

Laurie,
    Though you certainly make a valid, well presented argument, coupling 
such a requirement with an ownership policy that does not recognize the 
capacity of the blind to care for a dog leads one to question whether such a 
requirement is an effort to track the health of the dogs or an attempt to 
exert more influence over and intrusion into a blind person's life. As so 
many have said, we have a choice as consumers and I choose to get my next 
dog from a school that recognizes my capacity as a blind adult by granting 
me ownership of my dog upon graduation with no strings attached! As a 
consumer advocate, I also choose to let others know they have a choice, in 
spite of the assertions by some schools that such policies are the trend.

Fraternally,
Marion gwizdala

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Laurie Mehta" <lauriemehta at yahoo.com>
To: "the National Association of Guide Dog UsersNAGDU Mailing List" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] vet reports/was/Re: TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison

It is worth assessing whether a given policy actually merits being 
categorized among "custodial and paternalistic policies". /smile/

If an organization breeds animals as part of its business (dogs, for 
example) and if that organization wishes to track health data on the animals 
it has brought into being-- with the intent of making future breeding 
choices/decisions in as responsible a way as possible (using the health data 
as a basis for forming  scientifically sound predictions on likely vigor in 
a particular line for breeding, it is a reasonable view to look upon such 
data-collection as both reasonable and responsible.

In a nutshell, the issue of health data collection has nothing to do with 
blindness; it is an issue of dog-health and dog-genetics. /smile/

If a program that provides guide dogs *demands* annual health reports for 
the dogs they provide, an arguement could be made that such a *demand* would 
seem unreasonable to some people and that those people would likely choose 
not to obtain a guide dog from such a program.
However, even in this extreme example, it is an issue of dog-health and 
dog-genetics, combined with a dose of zeal.  It is not a blindness issue.

Consider this:
In practice, among the organizations that attempt to track health-data in 
the dog-population that they have brought into being, the health data is 
requested of puppy raisers (for the time that they have the dogs) and from 
the families who keep breeder dogs for that organization.  In most cases, 
these individuals (puppy raisers and breeder keepers) are not blind.  Like 
the handlers of the successful guides, however, these other individuals are, 
in fact, asked to provide the same dog-health information (periodic 
information on the health and behavior of the dog in their possession) to 
the organization-- for the purpose of helping the breeding department to 
plan as responsibly as possible.

So, puppy raisers, breeder-keepers, and handlers of successful guide dogs, 
are all asked to provide periodic data on the health of the dog that is in 
their individual possession.
This is why I view the issue of tracking dog-health data, even when such 
information is requested of a blind individual, as *not* falling into the 
category of "custodial and paternalistic policies". /smile/

In fact, if an organization is asking sighted individuals and blind 
individuals for information that they believe contributes positively to 
their business, that organization is acting just as any of us would prefer--  
they are treating all individuals equally.  /smile/

-Laurie

--- On Sun, 5/17/09, Marion & Martin <swampfox1833 at verizon.net> wrote:

> From: Marion & Martin <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] vet reports/was/Re:  TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 5:48 AM
> Laurie,
> I have stated my objection to custodial
> and paternalistic policies ad nauseum on this list and
> choose to not enter into the debate again at this time. As
> stated during these debates, individuals can choose which
> school they choose to get their dogs from and, if they
> choose one with regressive, custodial policies, that is
> their choice. At the same time, there is no choice if there
> is no information to guide this choice, so this list
> provides information.
>
> Fraternally,
> marion
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurie Mehta" <lauriemehta at yahoo.com>
> To: "the National Association of Guide Dog UsersNAGDU
> Mailing List" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 9:55 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] vet reports/was/Re: TSE and Guiding Eyes
> comparison
>
>
>
> Why should anyone object to sending in periodic reports on
> your dog's health to the program that you obtained your dog
> from? /smile/
>
> First of all, filling out a report is no serious hardship,
> but more importantly, if a program is trying to use some
> data-gathering to track the health of the various lines it
> breeds, this is a responsible approach to
> dog-breeding. By contributing data on your dog, you
> are helping your program of choice and you are helping
> future handlers by contributing to the encouragement of
> certain breeding-lines while other lines are dropped for
> their tendancy toward producing dogs with such problems as
> allergies or spinal cord degeneration.
>
> If one program chooses not to track health data, it is
> their choice of approach. However, it does not make it
> the only good approach. In fact, if data is actually
> tracked, many health issues that only are revealed in older
> age will be tracked as well. This helps in the
> breeding choices that end up being made-- avoiding some of
> those heartbreaking conditions that can actually be
> avoided.
>
> Here's an example:
> My first gsd (from GDB) eventually turned out to have a
> degenerative spinal condition. I kept the school
> informed of her health via routine vet forms and via more
> detailed info as the problem showed up in my then 9 and a
> half year old dog. Other handlers did likewise with
> their dogs. The end result was that the program was
> able to identify a few key points in their gsd lines and
> then they were able to avoid certain breedings.
> Believe me, anyone who has ever had the heartbreak of loving
> a dog with this degenerative condition will quickly agree
> that if that condition can be avoided it is only ethical to
> do so. No dog should have to suffer that way.
>
> So, if a program wants to track health data, good for
> them. /smile/
> -Laurie
> --- On Sat, 5/16/09, Margo and Arrow <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Margo and Arrow <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison
> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of
> Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 8:00 PM
> > Well, Seeing eye does not require us
> > to turn in vet reports and they do well at developing
> > training and breeding.
> >
> > Margo and Arrow
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "sblanjones11"
> <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of
> Guide
> > Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 7:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison
> >
> >
> > > I can tell you that GEB's training is also
> > individualized. We all get
> > > introduced to everything, but those who need more
> of
> > any particular type of
> > > training are given that opportunity.
> > > White Plains is where most of the training takes
> > place. It is a mid-sized
> > > city, with a great variety of urban and suburban
> > environments.
> > > SE also has excellent urban graining, and lots
> of
> > traffic checks.
> > > Both are excellent schools, and I don't believe
> an
> > urban traveler could go
> > > wrong at either.
> > >
> > > As far as GEB's ownership policy, ownership can
> be had
> > after two years.
> > > Work & health reports are requested annually,
> and
> > are very important to the
> > > development of breeding & training. Owners
> > as well as non-owners are
> > > requested to complete them.
> > >
> > > HTH.
> > > Susan & Rhoda
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > On Behalf
> > > Of Angie Matney
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 1:34 PM
> > > To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association
> of
> > Guide Dog Users'
> > > Subject: Re: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes
> comparison
> > >
> > > Hi Tami,
> > >
> > > The training at TSE is similar. I obviously
> can't
> > compare it to GEB, but I
> > > will say that what I liked about TSE was that it
> was
> > very individualized. At
> > > my first school, all students went into the city
> on
> > the same day. At TSE, we
> > > went in groups. I only went to NYC once, but
> other
> > students went more often,
> > > depending on their needs. Maybe Ann or another
> GEB
> > grad could speak to
> > > scheduling at GEB.
> > >
> > > Angie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> > On Behalf
> > > Of Ann Chiappetta
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 11:33 AM
> > > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association
> of
> > Guide Dog Users
> > > Subject: Re: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes
> comparison
> > >
> > > Hi Tammy;
> > > I'm a recent GEB grad and I believe I've gotten
> great
> > urban training. We
> > > were out five days a week for three weeks in
> downtown
> > White Plains, NY, a
> > > busy city with plenty of obstacles, like rounded
> > sidewalk ramps
> > > buses,,complicated crossings, scaffolding, and
> > people and other dogs.We
> > > trained in NYC only one day but it was great as I
> got
> > train/subway training
> > > and felt the safest I've felt in the subway
> since
> > losing my sight.
> > >
> > > I live in a suburban/urban setting and Verona's
> city
> > skills are spot on. We
> > > don't have much need for country walking so I
> make
> > sure I take her on side
> > > streets just to keep her skills up. But her
> > shorelining skills are good,
> > > too.
> > > Hope that helps.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
> > > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National
> Association of
> > Guide Dog Users'"
> > > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:26 AM
> > > Subject: [nagdu] TSE and Guiding Eyes comparison
> > >
> > >
> > >> Hey, all. A friend was asking me some
> > questions about guide dog
> > >> schools, and I had no clue to the answers, so
> I
> > thought I would ask.
> > >> She wanted to know how Guiding Eyes and TSE
> > compare when it comes to
> > >> urban training for both dog and handler,
> since
> > both are near NYC.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Has anyone been to both schools? How would
> > you compare the two?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Tami Smith-Kinney
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
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