[nagdu] Critical blind people

Mon Aug 2 00:35:04 UTC 2010

Jeanine, it's actually called Independence Market, but, you know, I rather 
like NFB Mall better.  cool!

We enjoyed you and Joyd, and of course, Tommy dog and am so glad you all 
could be with us.  thanks.

Margo and Arrow
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people

> I'll echo Julie, Albert.
>
> I've had a great time at the 2 national conventions I've attended. People
> were very nice. I think I only ran into one or two people who weren't but
> that's par for the course in any travel situation and I figured they 
> seemed
> like they were nasty to everyone equally so it wasn't just me. <grin>
>
> This year I had time to visit the NFB mall. Sorry, can't recall the name 
> of
> the place where all of the NFB products and stuff were sold. That was a
> really awesome experience. There were a lot of people working behind the
> tables and I'd say if you were newly blind and were the least bit
> intimidated about what you could do, that was the place to go. People were
> so friendly.
>
> I saw one man showing a first-timer how to become a talking sign, standing
> at the elevators for a few minutes and just saying "elevators, over here.
> This way to the elevators."
>
> I loved this concept at the first convention I attended, people taking a 
> few
> minutes to stand by a landmark and shout out what it was, hugely helpful 
> in
> terms of getting unlost. <grin>
>
> Besides, the NAGDU meetings are excellent. I do hope you plan to come to
> Orlando.
>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:28 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>
> Albert,
>
> I know we complain a lot on this list.  I'm guilty of it too.  Honestly
> though the huge majority of people that I've met at conventions have been
> nice, supportive, helpful and understanding.  I've learned things from 
> other
>
> blind people that never made sense to me anywhere else.  Braille, canes 
> and
> dogs are the norm.  You are among people who understand blindness like no
> other place I've been.
>
> People often refer to other members as their NFB family.  I think I'd 
> agree.
>
> Sure there are some of my family members that I really wouldn't miss if 
> they
>
> didn't show up for Christmas dinner, but overall they are my family and 
> they
>
> are there for me.
> Okay, I've gone a bit sappy.  I'll stop, but really do attend a convention
> if for no other reason than to experience it for yourself.
>
> Julie
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>
>
>> Buddy and all, that is why I live by the simple addage of do unto others
>> as
>> you would have them do unto you. I find that the blind community does 
>> have
>> its fair share of judgemental and opinionated people who forget that for
>> some reason. It is my way or the highway with all to many and this is one
>> reason I am still very reluctant to attend a convention at all. just know
>> that the more we all of us connect and talk the faster those old mind 
>> sets
>> can be dealt with and irradicated.
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Buddy Brannan
>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:20 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>>
>> See, this whole thing about how other blind people act towards people 
>> with
>> additional or different disabilities just blows my mind. We expect 
>> sighted
>> people to give consideration to us because of our blindness, treat us 
>> like
>> human beings, not act like idiots, and we won't extend that same respect
>> to
>> those different from us? This sounds a lot like the "reverse
>> discrimination"
>> that at times racial minority groups heap upon white Americans, for
>> instance. Really? We expect respect but won't give it ourselves to those
>> we
>> don't understand or who are different from us? Really? And we expect
>> different treatment from this why? Maybe we should all look at our own
>> behavior and change that? Isn't it one of those leadership principles 
>> that
>> we should not ask others to do that which we ourselves are not willing to
>> do? Pointing at me, too, just in case anyone thinks I'm just getting up 
>> on
>> my high horse.
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 1, 2010, at 11:34 AM, Jewel S. wrote:
>>
>>> I havenoticed, also, that many blind people have no understanding for
>>> people with multiple disabilities. I will throw my own story about
>>> this in.
>>>
>>> When I was at the rehab center here in Raleigh, there was a student
>>> who came just for two classes (because she had other classes to attend
>>> and needed to concentrate on the two classes carefully for now):
>>> Braille and Orientation & Mobility. She was deafblind, and only the
>>> teachers who worked with her gave her any notice, the others all
>>> avoided contact with her, and I found that none of the other students
>>> were even saying Hi to her, not even through her translator (she was
>>> deaf first, then blind, so she is very fluent in ASL). I finally
>>> decided that it was not something I would condone, this avoidance of a
>>> personw tih multiple disabilities. After that, the first chance I got,
>>> I sat down next to her, said hi to her translator and let her know
>>> that I was just going to chat with Jennifer and that no translation
>>> was necessary, as I knew some sign language. Then I placed my hand on
>>> Jennifer's upper arm very lightly, a tap really. She immediately
>>> extended her hands toward me in what I considered a question like "Who
>>> are you, why are you touching me, what's up?" I swiftly signed H-I
>>> into her hand, then "my name Jewel" I spelled it out, then gave the
>>> sign name I was given by a deaf friend in high school, a J at the
>>> eyeridge. She told me she knew someone with that sign name already,
>>> and changed mine to a J at the chin. I smiled, nodded acceptance, and
>>> we talked a little. Since she was learning the Braille alphabet, I
>>> asked her how it was going. Of course, having just started, she said
>>> it was hard and we went on from there. It turned out to be quite fun
>>> to sit and chat with her...she had a flittering mind like some people
>>> are...she could go from one topic to the next without concern for
>>> finishing a topic, and I found that kinda relaxing. We talked about
>>> everything from classes to cafeteria food to books to volunteer work
>>> (she was volunteering at a thrift store with her
>>> translator/caregiver).
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, when I asked her translator if she knew any books on
>>> signing that didn't rely heavily on pictures, she said she didn't and
>>> would look int it, but found nothing. I would have asked Jenn, but she
>>> wasn't around at the moment (in class) and forgot to ask after, but I
>>> don't think she would have known of any, especially since she didn't
>>> need them, being fluent in ASL.
>>>
>>> I tried to get other people to talk to Jennifer, whether directly or
>>> through her translator, but it didn't work too well. But, toward the
>>> end of my time there, Jennifer started making it a point to talk to
>>> people when she got to class. One afternoon, she sat down and signed
>>> to her translator, who spoke up "Hi everyone, I'm Jennifer.  Who all
>>> is in class today?" I saw that as a very good sign (no pun intended!)
>>> that my talking with her was showing her that she could make friends
>>> with other blind people. It made me feel warm when she did that,
>>> because it showed she was thinking of us as other people that she
>>> could call friends.
>>>
>>> There was a discussion a little time back about a a Swiss group, I
>>> believe, coming up with a device that helps blind people see the
>>> emotions on people's faces. I think that device would be put to much
>>> better use as a way for blind people to feel the signs translated into
>>> Braille or some such. It can be hard for a deaf person to allow a
>>> blind or deafblind person place their hands over theirs as they sign
>>> (it slows movements and makes some signs almost impossible to make if
>>> the person's hands are not very lightly touching), and a device that
>>> translates ASL onto a screen would be good for blind people (tactile
>>> display) and sighted people (print display).
>>>
>>>
>>> Another example of multiple disability insensitivity is my own. I have
>>> chronic pain and fatigue, and *very* sensitive nerves. I don't like to
>>> be touched without warning, because it will set up a flash of pain if
>>> I don't brace myself and even then, it flashes pain but at least I
>>> know it's coming. However, many people (sighted or blind) feel they
>>> have to touch me, give hugs and pats on the back or shoulder, grab my
>>> arm to lead me or expect me to hold their arm so they can lead. They
>>> don't seem to understand when I say "Please don't pat my back; I have
>>> chronic pain and it hurts a lot when you do that." or "I will follow
>>> you. I can listen to your feet and see the colour of your shirt. I
>>> would rather not touch or be touched." It can be very difficult to get
>>> people to understand, even those very close to me. My O&M instructor
>>> still likes to give me a pat on the shoulder when I've done well,
>>> though I've told him that it hurts and that I'd rather he verbalize
>>> things instead)...he has almost knocked me over with his "pats." This
>>> sort of thing can also be seen in people who are blind and have
>>> autism. Often, autistic people do not wish to be touched because they
>>> are sensitive to sensory input and a touch can feel very painful or
>>> interfering to a person.
>>>
>>> Perhaps some kind of sensitivity training would be good for many blind
>>> people to learn about multiple disabilities. In NAGDU, this could
>>> apply by doing some kind of sensitivity training about how guide dogs
>>> work with people with multiple disabilities and how what might seem
>>> wrong to one person is how that team works best together. Such
>>> discussion could also discuss dogs who have more than one task. For
>>> example, Roxy's dogs are guides and also help with pulling laundry
>>> hampers around (just an example!). Other guide dogs also have a
>>> balance harness to assist with balance, and still others are trained
>>> to stop at every curb or driveway, not just intersections, because the
>>> handler might stumble on the slope down to the driveway or the step
>>> down off the curb. Still others are trained to work with people in
>>> motorized wheelchairs, who use a support cane, or who need extra time
>>> to listen for traffic at an intersection. I think a discussino on this
>>> topic, a conference call or a class with a presentor who has worked
>>> with guide dogs who assist people with multiple disabilities (I know
>>> GDF has) would be a great thing. What do you guys think?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/1/10, Hope Paulos <hope.paulos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> her name is pronounced: ben yay. I'll explain how she finds 
>>>> stalls/sinks
>>>> when I have a minute. Am running out the door. <smile>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:18 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Hope-
>>>>>
>>>>> Just read your post.  Please tell me how you pronounce your dog's 
>>>>> name-
>>>>> I'm
>>>>> intrigued.  Also, wondering if you could give me some pointers on how
>> you
>>>>> trained your guide to find the largest stall and sinks. I've not found
>>>>> a
>>>>> good enough way yet. It's a gamble to see if she'll find the stall 
>>>>> each
>>>>> time, and finding the sink is rare.
>>>>> Either way, thanks for listening.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Hope Paulos
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:14 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree, Jenine. I was at several conventions, and when I told my dog
>>>>> to
>>>>> "find the elevator" (no matter where I was in the particular hotel)
>> she'd
>>>>> immediately take me there. I didn't have to say "left" "right", etc.
>>>>> She
>>>>> automatically took me there. And this could be from  *anywhere* in the
>>>>> hotel... I also trained her to find the largest stall in the restroom,
>> the
>>>>> sink (restroom) and paper towels (just below the dispenser). Now it's 
>>>>> a
>>>>> matter of teaching her to find/follow lines and not cut in front of
>>>>> people.
>>>>> <grin>
>>>>> Hope and Beignet
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Susan Jones" <sblanjones11 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 9:59 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I find the "find" command invaluable, and use it often, especially 
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> trash
>>>>>> cans, elevator buttons, stairs, doors, etc.
>>>>>> Susan & Rhoda
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Jenine Stanley
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 8:18 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wow, I'm amazed at how many of you have encountered the sentiment 
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> having your dog find common things, like entrances, elevators, etc.,
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> too
>>>>>> hard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is not a GDf brag by any means but this concept of using the
>>>>>> dog's
>>>>>> vision and training to help you find things being too much is so
>> foreign
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> how I have been taught for the past 20 years that it boggles my mind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My first group of instructors at GDf told us that we could teach our
>> dogs
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> find just about anything if we used the method we were taught and
>> started
>>>>>> slowly. We were encouraged throughout class to have the dog find
>>>>>> things
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> finding entrances and exits was part of every day work. Finding
>>>>>> stairs,
>>>>>> elevators, escalators, etc., was as well. During class we have the
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> find
>>>>>> our rooms, not because GDF thinks we can't  but because it does help
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> instill that find command. I use this constantly in hotels where I
>>>>>> want
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> dog to return to my room.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We, and when I say we, I mean students, teach the dogs to find "my
>> seat"
>>>>>> which is either an assigned seat in the dining room during class, or
>> any
>>>>>> seat I might vacate and leave things at, such as in a meeting. I 
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> even
>>>>>> have to leave my things there necessarily.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The hard part about this type of work is allowing the dog to do it,
>> make
>>>>>> mistakes and get it right. You do have to offer the dog a little
>> support
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> times and not over correct if he or she gets it wrong, but wow, it's 
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> of working with a dog that maximizes both of your abilities and if 
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> the least problem with hearing or orientation, this skill can be
>>>>>> invaluable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've heard one instructor say that the find command doesn't work
>> because
>>>>>> people too often misuse it, asking their dogs to find things that
>> aren't
>>>>>> there or facing one direction and asking the dog to find the door out
>> of
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> room without knowing where it is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My answer to this is that either the people he has seen don't
>> understand
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> the command works or aren't reading their dogs well, or the dogs have
>>>>>> never
>>>>>> been taught the command and what is expected of them. Dogs and people
>> who
>>>>>> have been taught the find command and know how to teach it in a
>>>>>> variety
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> settings, usually get it. I can be facing the back wall of a room and
>> ask
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> dog to "find outside." He may turn a couple times or do a circuit of
>> the
>>>>>> room until he recognizes the door out but he will find it. This is
>>>>>> especially helpful in large open spaces like exhibit halls.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, this year in Dallas, Swap found getting out of the exhibit hall
>> very
>>>>>> challenging some days. So did my wallet but that's another story.
>> <grin>
>>>>>> There were often crowds, but not necessarily huge crowds, around the
>>>>>> entrance so when I asked him to find outside, meaning the way out, he
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> do a circuit of the room and end up at a booth we liked, always a
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> one, but usually not necessarily close to the exit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, DUH, Jenine, why not try some positive reinforcement when he
>>>>>> does
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> it? A little food reward paired with the GDF praise "Good outside!"
>>>>>> worked
>>>>>> wonders. E
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't even imagine why other blind people or other handlers would
>>>>>> criticize using these commands, unless it's for the reasons espoused
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> instructor. If my dog just isn't finding something, chances are it
>> really
>>>>>> isn't there or he's confused somehow. That's when I can step in and
>>>>>> ask
>>>>>> others for help, just pointing me in the right direction usually 
>>>>>> works
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> sometimes the dog figures out that the human knows best and will
>> default
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The key to really getting the most out of the find command though 
>>>>>> once
>>>>>> it's
>>>>>> been cemented, is to use it. Expect the dog to find things and reward
>>>>>> appropriately. You also need at times to use other humans to help 
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> learning new things to find, like doors, elevators and such in new
>>>>>> places.
>>>>>> No big deal though. Some dogs are better at words and finding things
>> than
>>>>>> others too. I've had the spectrum and even the ones who weren't truly
>>>>>> word
>>>>>> oriented were concept and context oriented and caught on quickly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jenine Stanley
>>>>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>
>>
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>>>>> om
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>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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