[nagdu] Critical blind people

Mon Aug 2 13:54:20 UTC 2010

The "find" command is wonderful! For example, I distinguish with my dog 
Bailey "find the door" and "Find the door, outside" She usually knows the 
difference. It is great!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people


> Jeanine, now this is a wonderful piece for the harness up newsletter on
> nagdu once it gets going. The find command is so useful and I do not even
> think about it any more it is just something we do. thanks for shedding 
> the
> light on this important topic.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
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>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Jenine Stanley
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 8:18 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>
> Wow, I'm amazed at how many of you have encountered the sentiment that
> having your dog find common things, like entrances, elevators, etc., is 
> too
> hard.
>
> This is not a GDf brag by any means but this concept of using the dog's
> vision and training to help you find things being too much is so foreign 
> to
> how I have been taught for the past 20 years that it boggles my mind.
>
> My first group of instructors at GDf told us that we could teach our dogs 
> to
> find just about anything if we used the method we were taught and started
> slowly. We were encouraged throughout class to have the dog find things 
> and
> finding entrances and exits was part of every day work. Finding stairs,
> elevators, escalators, etc., was as well. During class we have the dogs 
> find
> our rooms, not because GDF thinks we can't  but because it does help to
> instill that find command. I use this constantly in hotels where I want 
> the
> dog to return to my room.
>
> We, and when I say we, I mean students, teach the dogs to find "my seat"
> which is either an assigned seat in the dining room during class, or any
> seat I might vacate and leave things at, such as in a meeting. I don't 
> even
> have to leave my things there necessarily.
>
> The hard part about this type of work is allowing the dog to do it, make
> mistakes and get it right. You do have to offer the dog a little support 
> at
> times and not over correct if he or she gets it wrong, but wow, it's a way
> of working with a dog that maximizes both of your abilities and if you 
> have
> the least problem with hearing or orientation, this skill can be 
> invaluable.
>
>
> I've heard one instructor say that the find command doesn't work because
> people too often misuse it, asking their dogs to find things that aren't
> there or facing one direction and asking the dog to find the door out of a
> room without knowing where it is.
>
> My answer to this is that either the people he has seen don't understand 
> how
> the command works or aren't reading their dogs well, or the dogs have 
> never
> been taught the command and what is expected of them. Dogs and people who
> have been taught the find command and know how to teach it in a variety of
> settings, usually get it. I can be facing the back wall of a room and ask 
> my
> dog to "find outside." He may turn a couple times or do a circuit of the
> room until he recognizes the door out but he will find it. This is
> especially helpful in large open spaces like exhibit halls.
>
> Now, this year in Dallas, Swap found getting out of the exhibit hall very
> challenging some days. So did my wallet but that's another story. <grin>
> There were often crowds, but not necessarily huge crowds, around the
> entrance so when I asked him to find outside, meaning the way out, he 
> would
> do a circuit of the room and end up at a booth we liked, always a 
> different
> one, but usually not necessarily close to the exit.
>
> Well, DUH, Jenine, why not try some positive reinforcement when he does 
> get
> it? A little food reward paired with the GDF praise "Good outside!" worked
> wonders. E
>
> I can't even imagine why other blind people or other handlers would
> criticize using these commands, unless it's for the reasons espoused by 
> the
> instructor. If my dog just isn't finding something, chances are it really
> isn't there or he's confused somehow. That's when I can step in and ask
> others for help, just pointing me in the right direction usually works but
> sometimes the dog figures out that the human knows best and will default 
> to
> that.
>
> The key to really getting the most out of the find command though once 
> it's
> been cemented, is to use it. Expect the dog to find things and reward
> appropriately. You also need at times to use other humans to help when
> learning new things to find, like doors, elevators and such in new places.
> No big deal though. Some dogs are better at words and finding things than
> others too. I've had the spectrum and even the ones who weren't truly word
> oriented were concept and context oriented and caught on quickly.
>
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Cathryn Bonnette
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 7:52 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>
> Hi Rox,
>
> As soon as I brought Abby home from SE, I started teaching her the "find"
> command. I was also told it was unreasonable to expect her to find things
> like elevators and exits for me. Well, I don't have a hearing problem, but 
> I
> had problems with special orientation and getting lost easily even when I
> could see. When I lost my sight a few years ago, my ability to get lost
> improved dramatically! /smile/ If my guide dog can't find the escalator, 
> or
> elevator, or office door etc., we might never find it, but she actually
> learned the new command and now does exactly what I need.  I struggle to
> comprehend why the rudeness you experienced is so common among blind 
> people.
> Well, anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I am doing at least some 
> of
> the same things that you are to get oriented, and I wish you hadn't had
> those experiences. As for a long term answer- I'm still working it out. It
> seems that if I hang around with other blind folks, I am very likely to be
> criticized fairly frequently just for living! On the other hand, as I
> experience increasing distance from other social groups I don't much care
> for the Hermit lifestyle either. Ah so. Maybe I'll figure that out
> tomorrow-/smile/
> Your thoughts?
>
> Be well-
>
> Cathryn (& Abby)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of The Pawpower Pack
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 7:14 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Critical blind people
>
> Hi Dan,
> Oh yes, I get judged quite a bit because I can't use my ears to orient
> to my environment.  I went to an NFB convention in 2006 which was held
> at the hotel in Dallas.  I got lost quite a bit and every time I'd ask
> someone for assistance, they'd invariably say, "Listen to the
> fountain, where you want to go, that's left of the fountain."
> I couldn't hear the fountain at all and when I said that I was deaf, I
> got quite a few nasty comments, the most polite of which was, "well I
> can't help you, then."
> Also when I ask a person for directions, and they snap their fingers
> or tap on a chair/table and say "Over here!" and then they get
> frustrated because I can't figure out where over here is, exactly.  I
> can hear people speaking if we're in a quiet place, but I can't tell
> where the person is because like you, I can't localize sound.
> I've also been chastised by other blind people and guide dog program
> employees for expecting my dog to help me in convention settings by
> finding things such as the elevator, or the door outside.  I spend a
> great deal of time training this skill and I would say that my dogs
> are far more fluent in the "find" cue than most guide dogs because
> it's a necessity for them to be.  For many blind people, the find cue
> is just an added bonus.  I've been told that it is too much to expect
> my dog to find elevators or whatever and that I am going to stress my
> dog out, that I'm not taking responsibility for my part in the team
> and that my dog can't be expected to just take me where I want to go.
> I do have very good O&M skills, but I'm also deaf so my needs are
> different than for most guide dog handlers who are blind only.
> I get frustrated sometimes because I don't know why we can't just
> appreciate the one another's differences instead of getting upset when
> someone can't or chooses not to, do things like the majority.
>
> Rox and the Herbal HenchHounds
> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
> "It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point
> out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-
> wit, and the emperor remains an emperor."-- Neil Gaiman
> http://www.pawpowercreations.com/retreat.html
> pawpower4me at gmail.com
> AIM: Brissysgirl
>
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