[nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership

Wed Aug 4 04:19:23 UTC 2010

Every state has a Protection and Advocacy Agency:
http://www.ndrn.org/

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Cathryn Bonnette
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 11:32 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership

Tami and All:

OK, so I'm relatively new at this blindness thing, but I don't understand
why or how an agency like that remains in business and continues to be
funded! Is there a Protection and Advocacy group in Oregon? They take on
legal issues for persons with disabilities in general, so could possibly
help to address this issue. 
You know what would be great- not fun- but great is to plan a "sting" where
you go wearing a tae recorder or recording device and with a sighted person
to use a video cam. I don't know enough of the particulars, but choosing a
time when there are likely to be classes of blind kids around and social
workers in offices sounds like the best.

Another approach is to get the names of the social workers and find out
where they were licensed.- I believe that would be possible. Others on this
list probably know more about this, but I believe complaints could also be
filed with the licensing body.

Although we have not met, I echo the sentiment of grateful relief that you
are safe and away from that mess!

Cathryn (& Abby) be 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Charlene Ota
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 9:23 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership

Gee, Tami, well, I can't help it, you've done it again, written one of your
great adventures so-to-speak. Glad you got out of there alive! What kind of
social workers are those? They're sure a wonderful example for those blind
kids, too!

I've felt like this at conventions to some exetnet in a couple of situations
and I know it's not pleasant at all. Blindness isn't any excuse to be rude
and inconsiderate of everybody else around you. It's really pretty sad that
that's the way the rehab agency conducts itself. 

Keep safe! Stay far away!!  (smile!) 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 9:25 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership

Lyn,

I'll add the same for State agencies with that attitude.  Good grief!  I had
to go in a few weeks ago to get some documents from an instructor -- one of
the few real professionals there, who also happens to be blind.  So he
handed me the documents, and we were attempting to engage in polite chit
chat, when a group of clearly blind students came down the hall in the
hesitant careful way of people who are just learning mobility.  They were
all kinda short, so I guess it must have been the summer youth class.  The
instructor and I each stepped back against the wall to let the flock pass
without interference, making sure to give brief audible cues to let them
know we were there, then letting them pass en masse through the tricky
passage around the receptionist desk and into the foyer.  There's kind of a
zig zag there with a short wall between the corridor and the entry area.  I
happened to be standing on that side, which is a good thing, since I work
Mitzi on my right side and that put me between her and the wall.

In that light, I could only see shadows really, and some flash of white
canes inexpertly held.  I was also able to see the two much taller people
who came barreling into the blind students from behind, pushing and shoving
and snapping at them to get out of the way as they were trying to make their
way through that zigzag with its sharp corners on all sides, not to mention
a person pressed against the wall on either side to avoid getting in the
way...  

Suddenly, there were blind kids bouncing everywhere.  The blind instructor
had to press himself practically into the wall and start sidestepping back
down the corridor to get out of the way.  I had to put Mitzi further behind
me on leash -- I would have just dropped it if I weren't worried about its
getting stepped on.  DD was there, and he had to back up, too.  I walked
backwards with my hand on the wall, hoping I didn't run my dog into that
sharp corner -- or myself!  I'm only just to the point where I'm not
spending more than I actually have to recover from the injuries I received
from that sort of behavior 4 years ago.  I really did *not* want to have to
start a new round for fresh injuries received just from being blind and
walking into the Oregon Commission for the Blind.

Anyway, we backed around the corner, while the poor kids boinged around
trying to get themselves sorted out as the social workers continued to push
and shove and snarl at them.  The hand I was trailing along the wall --
instead of holding the guide dog handle -- touched glass and an added bounce
pushed me against the door and it opened.  So I just ducked through into the
entry way, with Mitzi already there because she ain't no stupid dog.

I honestly thought about just leaving her there where she was safe and
bursting back in to raise heck, only I'd left my cane in the car, since I
was using my guide dog, and I didn't want to be one more person running into
the blind kids.  So Mitzi and just blew through the door to the outside so I
could light a cigarette and smoke off my fury.  While we waited for DD, who
some minutes waiting for an opportunity to get out the door and join us.

Oh, and did I mention.  The OCCB Director's office is right there, and she
keeps her door open.  Whether she was present or not, I do not know, but it
is pretty obvious that her staff feel perfectly comfortable physically
abusing the clients right in front of her door!

This, in Oregon, is okay.  People come out needing physical therapy before
they can apply whatever living skills they managed to pick up.  Then they
get to learn that their IPE is not going to be met by the agency for some
spurious reason or another...  The agency gets federal funding based on the
number of warm bodies they process through their so-called living skills
program, so they will simply refuse to do anything else for you until you
show up...  If you end up needing medical treatment and months of physical
therapy as a result, oh well!

It concerns me now more than ever, because with the School for the Blind
closed down (land grab by the state), those kids have nowhere else to go to
learn blindness skills.  You can bet the mention of the NFB Centers is never
mentioned under the principle of informed choice!  And what about all those
returning Vets?  Maybe they have another alternative through VA, but I worry
about that.  As well as the run of the mill schmucks like me who don't
deserve it either.

Okay.  Rant over.  One thing for sure:  I won't go in there again.  Not
without a video camera and someone who is prepared to use it.  Like you say,
that's gotta stop!

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Linda Gwizdak
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 9:17 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership

Hi All,
I changed the subject line of this.

This is why I will NEVER go to a school with a contract or not having real
ownership like Seeing eye has.  That school that abuses blind people and
blackmails their graduates with taking away their dogs is paternalism at its

worse!  It should be closed down or become the next target of NFB as the NAC

places were during the seventies and eighties. Maybe we're becoming too nice

and have forgotten about our old tactics that have WORKED.

Now, protecting the dogs.  Any school can use Seeing Eye's model that has
worked for them for the past 81 years.  You screen your applicants.  You
watch them carefully for signs of potential prioblems during class.  After
the graduate goes home, any abuse problems get reported to Animal Control
just like anyone else's pet dogs or cats. This system works and the number
of blind people who abuse their dogs is very small.  What blind person would

abuse the thing that gives us freedom to move around without having to use a

white cane?  Only someone who has other problems and many schools are able
to find this out before the person even goes to the school.

End the abuse of blind people from paternalistic schools!!  Shut 'em down!!!

JMO

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising

> All:
>
> After reading this, I register my vote for ownership based on experience. 
> If
> you have a moment to read, here's my story:
>
> While renting a house on a cul-de-sac at the end of another 
> cul-de-sac,-meaning there were rarely any cars on either street-  I 
> decided to leave my guide at home one morning since she was enjoying 
> the sun in my fenced back garden. I lived walking distance from my 
> office, and planned to come hone for lunch and take her back to the 
> office that afternoon.
> Gardners
> came that morning, and despite my instructions left the gate open when 
> they finished their work. My guide took a stroll down the street and a 
> neighbor put her in his garage with his lab. I came home for lunch, 
> found the open gate and went down the street calling her loudly and 
> asking everyone I encountered until I found her, thanked my neighbor 
> and brought her home.
> Meanwhile this Good Samaritan had called the school due to tags on my 
> dog's collar. So, I called the school to let them know all was well. 
> Regardless of my assurances, they insisted on showing up at my home, 
> to "make sure you're all right." As they continued to insist, I 
> finally confronted them with the
> abuse I had witnessed and experienced by one of their staff, and    told
> them that if they came to my home uninvited, I would file a complaint 
> for trespass. I concluded by repeating that both my dog and I were 
> completely safe, and that I was returning to work.  Of coarse, that 
> made me public enemy #1 and the Wicked Witch of the West etc.  from 
> that school's prspective.
> You may think this sounds harsh, but I knew the month of abusive 
> treatment

> I
> had survived at the school, and of horror stories about dogs being 
> taken back from blind people without notice or basis since this school 
> never gave legal ownership to blind persons who received dog guides 
> from them. Thus, abusing blind people was tolerated, but the school 
> retained ownership of their dogs to prevent dog abuse. (Perhaps it is 
> just me, but this seems rather strange.)  I am in absolute agreement 
> that dog abusers should not be able to keep dogs. I am equally 
> convinced that blind persons who use dog guides must not be treated 
> like children as schools retain legal ownership of dog guides. My 
> suggestion as a way to deal with dog abusers is to contact local 
> animal control.  They will observe and intervene.
> OK- sorry this is so long.  Have a great day everyone, and comment as 
> you like.
>
> Cathryn (& Abby)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf of Nimer Jaber
> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:47 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>
> I look at it is if we had to fill out reports and it minimized the 
> dogs that ended up getting abused, mistreated or whatever it would 
> also reflect better on us as dog guide users. We are a minority just 
> being blind. Being blind dog guide owners makes us more of a minority.
> So, if someone saw a blind guy abusing his dog or saw a dog that 
> wasn't being taken care of, what kind of response do you think that 
> person's going to give to the next person who he/she runs across with 
> a guide? It's a reputation thing almost as much as it is to protect 
> the animals. If we want to keep our rights as dog guide owners, we 
> have to show that we can take care of them and not abuse them. One or 
> two people abusing their dogs in front of the right individual could 
> spell trouble for dog access laws. You guys can disagree as much as 
> you wish, any comments are welcome.
>
> On 30/07/2010, Danielle Nicole Larsen <dnlarsen75 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> People who shouldn't have dogs are people I believe whoa ren't ready 
>> for
> the
>> commitment. People who have drug problems. People who are unable to
> control
>> their temper. Anyone who'd put a dog in danger.
>> Big brother watching is creepy. Ownership is valuable.
>> But to prevent dogs from being in danger I think it's teh safer 
>> choice overall.
>> It would be a sacrifice I'd be willing to make to protect the others.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>
>>
>>> How are you deciding that "people who shouldn't have dogs" might get 
>>> them and what constitutes your criteria for who should have a dog?
>>> So, if people who shouldn't have dogs, in quotes, get them, than 
>>> wasn't
> it
>>> the poor judgment of the school rather than a question of ownership?
>>> I do believe in total unfettered and unrestricted ownership, though 
>>> I see that I'm in a minority--smile.
>>> Most of us apparently want big brother watching us.
>>>
>>> A yearly vet report won't stop, for example, the people I myself 
>>> think shouldn't have dogs, the ones who in my judgment correct the 
>>> begeezes out of their dogs.
>>> Or those who are yelling at their dogs, that bugged me more than, 
>>> say, an uncontrolled dog before I had a dog. Now I have a dog and 
>>> know things happen, but I have a mental check list of people I have 
>>> met who I think would do the dog and themselves a favor by not 
>>> having one--smile.
>>>
>>> Remember, that's my judgment, if a training facility doesn't   think
>>> certain
>>> grads should have dogs  then they will need to do better at 
>>> selecting or training.
>>> A blind person is still a person.
>>> I love dogs more than I can say, actually, but facts are facts, 
>>> people need to be given consideration, blind people too--smile.
>>> We're not just people who have been granted a dog and therefore must 
>>> be watched because the dog is more important than we are and being a 
>>> blind person with a guide dog, we might and probably will abuse our
dogs..
>>> If the schools are so sure we will abuse our dogs, then think twice 
>>> about training them for us.
>>>
>>> I personally despise slime balls who abuse their dogs, but will a 
>>> school owning our dogs and subjecting us to yearly check  lists stop
that?
>>> Evidence suggests that it won't.
>>> The Seeing Eye grants ownership, as I understand, I have not, 
>>> however,
> got
>>> the impression that more Seeing Eye grads mistreat their dogs than 
>>> any other school's grads.
>>>
>>>
>>> Remember not attacking you, just expressing my opinions as you are 
>>> expressing yours.
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>>
>>> Dan W.
>>>
>>> -----Or
>>>
>>>
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>>
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