[nagdu] questions I get from my bus driver thatisnot anaccessible bus just regular bus

Fri Dec 10 17:56:42 UTC 2010

Jordan,

We've had some serious incidents in this area from frauds where the results
are serious enough to make the news.  In one case, a big fraud dog killed a
a smaller dog on the train I ride to get into town, so that's very close to
home.

The big dog's owner was challenged as he was bringing it on the train, but
he said the magic words, "Service dog," so on they went.  The little dog was
reported to be a "service animal" but was actually an emotional support
animal, which means it shouldn't have been on the train, either.  It was
also a Pomeranian, so in addition to being quiet and well-behaved and
comforting, was very very cute, which made it a good lead in the story, I
guess.

It, at least, was sitting pretty as you please and quiet as a mouse in its
elderly owner's lap when the big dog just up and killed it in passing.  This
was a problem, or so it seemed from the news reports on the local TV
networds, because it was upsetting to the other passengers.  Once the
elderly woman's lap had been mentioned as the scene of the incident, she was
pretty well left out of the story.  I had a hard time getting the whole
story because I kept yelling at the newscasters, then would have to watch
through the parts that made me so mad to get the next part of the story so I
could be madder...  Ugh!

Anyway, the big dog was hauled off for observation by animal control.  The
owner was banned from riding the train for a couple of days, it was reported
later.

More other passengers were interviewed to tell us all how upset they were
and how they shouldn't have to see such things.

I spent the next month or so assuring people that my guide dog does *not*
bite, that she really is a guide dog, that she does *not* bite, it's a
Gentle Leader, not a muzzle, she does *not* bite just because she's wearing
a GL, which doesn't even resemble a muzzle, so its presence is just to help
me keep in touch with her nose, and no she is not wearing it because she is
vicious.  I had a couple of people ask in an access challenge sort of way,
but they were too afraid to come near my vicious dog to get in our way.  I
began to think I was going to need a muzzle for myself, because I had
expected it as I was listening to the news story, but it did get old before
people got onto worrying about something else that didn't have to do with
fake service dogs and my vicious, muzzled poodle.  Sigh.  Well, plenty of
opportunities for me to educate, I guess.

So, yes, frauds with bad dogs are a real, real problem.  Perhaps if that guy
had been hauled off to jail and tossed (roughly, I hope) into the deepest,
darkest cell, and *then* forgotten about until it was time to haul him out
for the judge to throw the book at him (or an entire law library, just for
good measure) before sentencing him harshly for his crime, with much
reporting about the whole thing all over the TV and newspapers, perhaps I
could rest easier what with not having to wonder what I'm going to do when
my legit service dog is the one on the train with the fraud and his vicious
dog...

I don't understand the psychology and motivations of these kinds of frauds,
but I think it's safe to assume that responsibility is not a big part of
their nature.  I'm thinking selfishness must be a much bigger part of their
nature than it is for the rest of us.  I'm thinking of the sorts of people
who will see a rule and break it just because it's there and they feel like
it and they don't care who gets hurt as long as it's not them and they can
get away with it.  That's a lot of generalizations, I know, but it's the
best I've ever been able to come up with.

The point there is that if they're going to be hurt by breaking the rule
because they're not going to get away with it, their motivation for breaking
that rule is pretty well inhibited.  There will still be some who have to
try to sneak their rotten dogs onto trains, but perhaps not so many?

Anyway, those are my thoughts.  Why have laws if they're not going to be
enforced?

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jordan Gallacher
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 6:36 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] questions I get from my bus driver thatisnot
anaccessible bus just regular bus

No, no, no.  If it is a pet, and it is being passed off as a service animal,
then there needs to be evidence of such use.  If it is a pet, and the
business doesn't make it leave, and a person who has a legit service animal
gets injured in the business because his dog gets distracted, guess who is
liable.
Jordan

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marion Gwizdala
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 6:31 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] questions I get from my bus driver that isnot
anaccessible bus just regular bus

Jenine,
    As it was stated by a DOJ Senior Trial Attorney during one of my many 
discussions concerning this that helped me better understand this issue 
while I was grappling with it, "If someone gains access with a pet that they

are claiming to be a service animal and it is well behaved and causes no 
threat to the health or safety of others, what harm has been done? On the 
other hand, even a legitimate service animal that is a threat or is 
disruptive can be removed!"

Fraternally yours,
Marion

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] questions I get from my bus driver that is not 
anaccessible bus just regular bus

> Cheryl,
>
> All the bus driver can ask are the two questions specified by the DOJ.
>
> Is that a service animal to assist with your disability?
> What tasks does that animal perform?
>
>
> If the dog is disruptive and has a history of being so on buses, then it 
> can
> be banned from the buses all together. The person cannot be banned but the
> dog can, so if she leaves the dog at home, she can still ride.
>
> If a dog gets on the bus with someone and that person says it's a service
> animal and the dog doesn't bother anyone, then there's nothing to be done.
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of cheryl echevarria
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:38 PM
> To: nagdu
> Subject: [nagdu] questions I get from my bus driver that is not an
> accessible bus just regular bus
>
> As many of you know I live out in Long Island, NY not to far from GDF.
>
> And there has been a person, who swears that there dog is a guide dog,
> meaning a pit bull.
>
> I don't know if Jeanine knows about this issue.  But here on Long Island, 
> I
> believe every year the Suffolk County Bus Company for there drivers that 
> is
> called sensitivity training.
>
> I wish they would allow me to come as well as being part of NAGDU, and 
> have
> a representative from GDF as well as the other service animal schools in 
> the
> area.
>
> One day, I was a passenger on the bus when this person tried to pass off
> there dog as a service animal, again this dog is a pit bull.
>
> I was sitting there and the driver said that we are stopping and the 
> person
> has a dog and has tried to get on the bus before the driver side to me, 
> they
> don't carry a card with them, but they carry the print out of the ADA law
> with them.
>
> I will tell you what happened, and then I will put what the driver's
> question is.
>
> First when the driver stopped and the woman tried to get on the bus, now
> mind you I sit in the front because I like to talk to my driver as well.
> Nice guy, many years he has been the driver, anyway she tries to get on 
> but
> her dog starts to growl and bark at my dog.  Maxx moved closer to me not
> wanting anything to do with this dog.
>
> I asked her what type of dog is that, she said a pit bull, no I said 
> meaning
> what kind of service animal is it.  She said he was just a service animal
> and that she has the paperwork to prove it. I said what job does the dog 
> do
> for you, I didn't say what disability she has.  She said he is her comfort
> animal.  I said 1, Comfort animals are not considered Service Animals and
> fall under the ADA. 2. In the State of NY, especially Suffolk County NY, 
> and
> some other parts of NY to even have a pit bull, and that I am blind and a
> graduate of GDF I said which school, and I pulled out my ID from GDF, I do
> not need to carry paperwork around with me and never should she. From my
> searching I have found that especially in the state of NY there is no
> service animal training schools that train pit bulls. I asked her where 
> she
> got her dog, she said NY.
>
> The driver asked her to please leave if she could not control her dog.
>
> A few months later she tried to get on another bus and the driver let her
> on.
>
> The driver and I spoke the other day since I had to go somewhere, that she
> tried to get on again on his bus, and he said he wouldn't allow the dog on
> the bus.
>
> The driver wants to know how far are they allowed to go to stop this.
>
> To many people are trying this in Suffolk County.
>
> Yes we get IDs and I don't know what the big deal is about giving ID, I
> think that helps a lot, especially in the case that it is not always 
> obvious
> to lets say in this situation to tell if someone is disabled and needs a
> dog, I mean if a person is blind it is not always noticeable, not everyone
> uses dark glasses, or has a dog with a harness with the schools name on 
> it,
> or a person in a wheelchair, and with more children and adult with 
> seizures
> or autism or other disabilities how is one to know.  You can't ask what 
> the
> disability you have, you can't force a person to show ID.  What is the
> answer?
>
> The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services!
>
> Cheryl Echevarria
> http://Echevarriatravel.com<http://echevarriatravel.com/>
> 1-866-580-5574
>
Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel 
> CST-1018299-10
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise and Travel 
> Inc.
>
> join my yahoogroup
>
echevarriatravel-subscribe at yahoogroups.com<mailto:echevarriatravel-subscribe
> @yahoogroups.com>
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