[nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
Lisa Irving
lirving1234 at cox.net
Tue Apr 19 06:29:27 UTC 2011
Thanks, Marion.
Lisa and Bernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 4:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
> Lisa,
> I'm not sure if I know what I am doing here! Is this the bar?
> Seriously, you did a good job expressing yourself!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 1:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>
>
>> Marion, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here.
>>
>> Consumers shall receive verbal and written notification by the school
>> when a food allergy has been identified by the puppy raiser and or the
>> assigned veterinarian. With holding such vital information could have
>> devastating results for the guide dog team.
>>
>> Lisa and Bernie
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Lisa,
>>> Let me ask you to complete this statement as it pertains to the
>>> issues you raise. Please keep the statement succinct, about one or two
>>> sentences. Anyone else who wants to take a stab at it is welcome to do
>>> so. As a guideline, here is the statement that would precede this one.
>>>
>>> a. Consumers shall expect that every effort shall be made to
>>> provide dogs in excellent health and appropriate temperament
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, complete this statement to provide that the program discloses this
>>> information:
>>>
>>> The guide dog training program shall disclose ....
>>>
>>> I look forward to your input on our Bill of Rights!
>>>
>>> fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:16 AM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] when should schools give information about dog guides
>>> and re issued guides
>>>
>>>
>>>> I believe the school has an obligation to be up front with the
>>>> student. I respect that the school doesn't want to set the student or
>>>> the dog up for frustration and failure. This is what I base my belief
>>>> on.
>>>>
>>>> My first guide dog was a sweet and stubborn Goldie. She was a finicky
>>>> eater too. The school said nothing about her propensity to not eat.
>>>> However, the puppy raiser did tell me on the sly. I was told that from
>>>> the "get-go" my Goldie was a fussy eater. The puppyraisers used
>>>> unconventional ways to get her to eat. They sprinkled Parmashon cheese
>>>> on her food. That's all right by me. They also 'fessed up to slipping
>>>> her people food. I'm glad they told me. It helped me be on the alert.
>>>>
>>>> My second dog, Louie, was a ever hungry Labrador. The puppyraisers said
>>>> something about all of his allergies and how he needed special food. I
>>>> disregarded what they said because I figured if my dog had various food
>>>> allergies the school would know and they would tell me. Louie is the
>>>> dog I returned because I thought he had behavioral issues. No, he had
>>>> very severe food allergies which explained why he learned to get the
>>>> bungy cords off the trash cans and feast. He also feasted on animal
>>>> feces too.
>>>>
>>>> Bernie, my third guide dog, probably has some food allergies. Not
>>>> wanting a sad repeat of the previous food related experiences with
>>>> Louie, I nipped the problem in the bud. That is, Bernie ate two
>>>> different dog foods that left him with gooey poo. Bernie eats a
>>>> fresh and whole food quality dog food. The joke is, I can eat the dog's
>>>> food if I really want a truly healthy and balanced diet.{In Bernie's
>>>> food is: salmon, barley, beets, carrots and ginger and other items{.
>>>>
>>>> Lisa and Bernie , ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:05 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>> Quite true. Though I'd be happy if the puppy raiser would let me know
>>>>> if,
>>>>> say, the dog was a habitual counter surfer. Though they probably
>>>>> wouldn't, for fear of getting their puppy dropped from training.
>>>>> I figure knowledge is power, and I'm a big girl who won't go nuts over
>>>>> little problems. But you're probably right that no one is going to
>>>>> tell
>>>>> me all I'd like to know.
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>> I was just comparing it to what we know about the guides we receive
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> not reissues. They normally don't tell us about those things when we
>>>>>> receive a nonreissue, so I wouldn't really expect them to for a
>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> because it was a reissue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:20 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>> I don't think I buy your argument. There could be plenty of
>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>> behaviors I might never think to mention. For example, Ben empties
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> route. The best I've managed to do is teach him to pull over first.
>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>> me, this is a very undesirable behavior, but it did not occur to me
>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>> the matching process to say so, any more than I would think to
>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> a shoe salesman that I don't want my shoe laces coming untied every
>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>> minutes.
>>>>>>> Personally, I'd like to at least be made aware of any undesirable
>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>> the school is aware of, so I could either take immediate steps to
>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>> it, or decide I don't want to deal with it at all. You can bet,
>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>> time, I'll say very loudly that I don't want a dog who empties on
>>>>>>> route.
>>>>>>> Then they'll probably give me a counter surfer instead. <grimace.>
>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Peggy,
>>>>>>>> Thinking about it, you probably don't even really need to know why
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>> didn't work, if its not something that is going to impact you. The
>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>> reason I can think of that a handler would need to know is if the
>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> some kind of medical condition where it is going to need
>>>>>>>> prescription
>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>> food, or baths every couple weeks, or something else that is going
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> real hassel and/or cost a lot more money than usual. But then
>>>>>>>> again,
>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>> think a handler should know this about any dog regardless if its a
>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>>> As long as the reissue matches what the new handler wants, and the
>>>>>>>> handler
>>>>>>>> is specific in what they want, there shouldn't be any problems. If
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> previous handler returned the dog because they didn't like
>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> that the dog scavenged a lot or counter surfed, etc, that shouldn't
>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>> too much either because if the new handler specifically doesn't
>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>> deal
>>>>>>>> with a major food distraction issue, they'd want to request a dog
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>> too food distracted, or ideally, who doesn't have a food
>>>>>>>> distraction
>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>> at all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 6:29 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's just it, you have no idea why the match didn't work, I'd be
>>>>>>>>> curious
>>>>>>>>> to find out, but schools don't always provide that information.
>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>> current Seeing Eye dog is a reissued dog and she is one of the
>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> have ever had. As I said I'll always wonder why her previous
>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>> work out but she is wonderful ... she was taken back to the
>>>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>>>> re-evaluated and whatever else they have to do. She lived in one
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> instructor's offices for supervision for quite a while. It was
>>>>>>>>> determined
>>>>>>>>> that she was still workable and was then matched with me and it's
>>>>>>>>> turned
>>>>>>>>> out wonderful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Sarah Clark
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:15 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>> ifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think you can turn down all reissues, or classify them all
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> same category. True that an occasional dog that is a reissue may
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>> sent back for unpleasant reasons like being too hard to handle for
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> handler, or certain health conditions that wouldn't stop the dog
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> working but that the handler didn't want to deal with, etc, but
>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>> are sent back for reasons that are not negative at all. Maybe the
>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> walked too fast for the handler and they got home and realized
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> they couldn't slow the dog down (this happened to my husband with
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>> many years ago). Maybe it just wasn't a good match. Or maybe the
>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>> lived in a very hot climate and the dog just couldn't handle the
>>>>>>>>> extreme
>>>>>>>>> heat (also happened with someone I know).
>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't think twice about taking a reissue if the school thinks
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>> is a good match for me and what I'm looking for. Its also true
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> have the experience under their belt so are often more seasoned
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> younger dogs. Though it is clear that some applicants don't want
>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>> because each school I have applied to has asked during the
>>>>>>>>> interview
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>> be open to having one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if
>>>>>>>>> itdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I know a guy who had a guide who had been reissued. This dog was
>>>>>>>>>>with
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>guy who got himself arrested and a jail term and the dog was taken
>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>him and my friend got this same dog. Boy, what stories this dog
>>>>>>>>>>could
>>>>>>>>>>have told if he could talk! It was a very nice dog and she worked
>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>for my friend and she had a good long working life.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:24 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi there, Tami and Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The more I contemplate the re issuance of a guide dog, I keep
>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>> how much it means to me when someone gives me a second chance.
>>>>>>>>>>> Our
>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>> deserve as many chances as we can give them; first time out, or
>>>>>>>>>>> re
>>>>>>>>>>> issued.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'twork out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm glad you asked this question. That's one of those program
>>>>>>>>>>>> policies
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> ran across while researching for owner-training, and my first
>>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion was very negative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Since then, I've heard of enough positive experience with dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>> reissued after being returned to have a more favorable view of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of what I've heard is from people who have done well with
>>>>>>>>>>>> re-issued
>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs or from people who know people... /smile/ Still, I get
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>>>>> and understand the reasoning others have explained, and it does
>>>>>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>> for the most part. There will certainly be times when it
>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> is true of matches in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As for whether you're over-reacting... As a still pretty new
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat experienced guide dog handler, also an owner-trainer
>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>> self-taught handler, I've been observing the attitudes and ways
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>> of handlers at or just above my level of experience as closely
>>>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>> those of the long-timers. I can watch my peers in that regard
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>>> myself a reality check as to how I'm coming along not just in
>>>>>>>>>>>> skill
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> maturity as a handler while I'm learning from those with much
>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's my observation, based not just on myself but on a
>>>>>>>>>>>> generalized
>>>>>>>>>>>> group of other first time handlers going through or just coming
>>>>>>>>>>>> past
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> team building phase: We over-react. To everything. /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>> good,
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> bad, the mundane... It is all new and exciting and frightening
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> wonderful and awful, all beyond belief. We popped out to
>>>>>>>>>>>> dinner
>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>> evening, and at the restaurant there was just this one little
>>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>>> one would have noticed beyond our table... Outwardly, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> remained
>>>>>>>>>>>> calm
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> responded correctly and it was all okay. Inwardly, what did I
>>>>>>>>>>>> do?
>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>> OMG! How can this be? What can it mean? Oh, no, this is so
>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible!
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then I noticed nothing had actually happened that was worth all
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> fuss and
>>>>>>>>>>>> got over it. /smile/ More and more, it's all old hat, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>>> still freak out just fine over absolutely nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As for working through bad habits in your re-issue dog... I
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>>> are right in their observations that during the first year or
>>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> always be something that will make you absolutely crazy about
>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>> your first dog, these will be far more magnified in your own
>>>>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> those you work with later on as a truly experience dhandler.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be dealt with and modified, certainly, but it's not
>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>> habit for
>>>>>>>>>>>> you yet to deal with those ups and downs. So you really have
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>> way through it and notice every little thing and try to figure
>>>>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> counteract and... Well, on and on. It just takes awhile for
>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> that to
>>>>>>>>>>>> become havit and natural. I've only been there for a short
>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> minor blips where I freak out over nothing -- and that sure is
>>>>>>>>>>>> nice!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck with your dog; sounds like you're coming through the
>>>>>>>>>>>> tream
>>>>>>>>>>>> building phase and are starting on the next one -- which is
>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>> falls together and you're just you working your guide. /smile/
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> loving
>>>>>>>>>>>> that, and trying to hold onto that feeling as I move into the
>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>> for granted phase.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:20 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>> List
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner if it
>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>> out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>>>>> My dog had another handler before me. I don't think that
>>>>>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> given another handlerbecause the dog picksup a lot of bad
>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>> are really hard to get rid of. I love my dog very muchand
>>>>>>>>>>>> harvard
>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>> changed my life, but it took me a year to stop a lot of her bad
>>>>>>>>>>>> habbits, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> we still have some work to do. What do you guys think? am I
>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>> reacting?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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