[nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
Sarah Clark
goldflash9 at sbcglobal.net
Fri Apr 22 18:15:35 UTC 2011
GDB also still retains ownership of the harness if the grad applies for
ownership of the dog. I think our instructor was saying that they would not
take the dog back if the grad has ownership, but they said if the dog was
being abused, animal services and the police would get involved, so the dog
could still be taken by those agencies.
Btw, I never bothered to apply for ownership. The way I saw it, I was doing
everything correctly and not mistreating my dog, so I personally never
thought of it as an important issue.
Sarah & Miguel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] GDA Ownership Agreement
> This is true, but I never signed anything. I don't particularly have an
> issue with ownership of the harness. After all, it has their name on it.
> Besides, as I've said a thousand times, there's nothing magic about guide
> dog equipment, and one can obtain replacements if necessary.
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Cindy Ray wrote:
>
>> Yes, TSE maintains ownership of the harness.
>>
>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 12:42 PM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
>>
>>> Well, you won't get a contract from Seeing Eye, because there isn't
>>> one. Yeah, the GDA thing is a bit disappointing though.
>>> --
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:31 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
>>>
>>>> Julie and Listers,
>>>> Attached to this mesage is Guide Dogs of America's ownership agreement.
>>>> It was sent to me upon my request. FYI, I also asked GDF for their
>>>> ownership agreement and am in the process of making similar requests to
>>>> each of the training programs. As of this writing, I have received no
>>>> other replies.
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie J" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 1:20 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I guess I thought GDA gave true legal ownership. That doesn't sound
>>>>> like what they offer. that's kind of disappointing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know if the ownership contracts of any of the programs are
>>>>> available on the internet? For me, being able to read the contract
>>>>> would help me immensely in deciding if that is a program I would want
>>>>> to apply to. It seems a large waste of everyone's time to apply, be
>>>>> accepted and then read the contract only to find out it isn't
>>>>> something I'm willing to sign.
>>>>>
>>>>> thoughts?
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
>>>>> <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 7:15 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>> They give ownership of your dog to you, but if they hear that your
>>>>>> dog is being abused or someone other than you is using your guide dog
>>>>>> they have the right to take your dog At least that's what they told
>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Julie J
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 4:48 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought GDA gave ownership to their grads. Is there something in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> contract that allows them to take a dog you own? I'm confused.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm glad it all worked out in the end, but sorry you had to go
>>>>>> through that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
>>>>>> <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 6:23 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Tami and Lyn,
>>>>>>> I would like to thank both of you for sharing your experiences.Both
>>>>>>> of you guys stories have helped me out. I can't put it into words
>>>>>>> how much. I got my dog from GDA and nothing against anyone who goes
>>>>>>> there but man they LOVE LOVE good stories. I found this out about
>>>>>>> six months ago. My grandmother told them that my X boy friend hits
>>>>>>> and kicks my guide dog and they believed her. They took my dog and
>>>>>>> then gave her back after they couldn't find any proof that she had
>>>>>>> been abused. It was a totally uncool experience. Yes the
>>>>>>> fabracated stories have to stop. I thought that I was the only one
>>>>>>> who has had some person make up a story about them and have the
>>>>>>> school take someone elses side but yours.I am just thankful I got my
>>>>>>> dog back. I am glad that I now know know that the schools talk to
>>>>>>> each other.I hope this issue does not effect me if I ever apply for
>>>>>>> another guide.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks a bunch
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:34 AM
>>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users'
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lyn,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Had that experience with my application to GDB, through the Boring
>>>>>>> campus,
>>>>>>> which I attempted to finish up after the big disaster at Oregon
>>>>>>> Commission
>>>>>>> for the Blind. Oh, they definitely talk to each other, too! And
>>>>>>> the GDB
>>>>>>> interviewer and, apparently, the selection committee, clearly
>>>>>>> believed them
>>>>>>> hook line and sinker!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So the one reason given that was GDB's own is that I had set a load
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> laundry by the kitchen door to the basement because the washers were
>>>>>>> full.
>>>>>>> It was still there when she arrived for the home interview, so when
>>>>>>> I showed
>>>>>>> her around, I explained that I'd set it there for later instead of
>>>>>>> carrying
>>>>>>> it up another flight of stairs in my house and having to carry it
>>>>>>> down that
>>>>>>> same extra flight later on when it was my turn for the laundry room.
>>>>>>> Apparently, if I will do such a carefless, negligent, dangerous
>>>>>>> thing when
>>>>>>> there is no dog in the house, I will almost certainly kill any guide
>>>>>>> dog of
>>>>>>> theirs because it will eat a sock and die. Turns out, that did
>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>> happen to one of their dogs way back in the mists of history. So
>>>>>>> I've heard
>>>>>>> others scratching their heads about the dire danger of socks and how
>>>>>>> come
>>>>>>> they have to keep hearing about how their going to kill their dogs
>>>>>>> if they
>>>>>>> drop a sock on the floor. Very odd. I'm not knocking the program
>>>>>>> or their
>>>>>>> dogs, since we all know they turn out good dogs and happy grads who
>>>>>>> somehow
>>>>>>> manage to avoid the dangers of lurking killer socks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The other two points in the letter were straight from Oregon
>>>>>>> Commission for
>>>>>>> the Blind, almost verbatim. The mobility instructor -- who also did
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> in-home living skills instructing -- reported that my ability to
>>>>>>> navigate
>>>>>>> and orient, along with my ability to accomplish household tasks
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> assistance from her, allowing her to play spider solitaire on my
>>>>>>> computer,
>>>>>>> indicated that I was using my really great vision to do these
>>>>>>> things. She
>>>>>>> did not -- or the letter from GDB did not mention this detail --
>>>>>>> that I was
>>>>>>> performing those tasks under sleep shade. Anyway, since I had
>>>>>>> really great
>>>>>>> vision and didn't need a guide dog and would most certainly screw it
>>>>>>> up if
>>>>>>> it lived long enough what with the socks and all, they preferred to
>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>> their dogs for blind people who needed them. Sigh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, because of what had happened when I came across the state to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Living Skills Center and nearly ended up dead, it appeared I had
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> serious mental health issues and would, you know, do bad things to
>>>>>>> the dog.
>>>>>>> Um... I had a real problem with that one, since I was getting
>>>>>>> through the
>>>>>>> PTSD from all that, and had been declared in the aftermath by not
>>>>>>> one but
>>>>>>> three licensed and qualified professionals using metric tools and
>>>>>>> everything
>>>>>>> to be quite sane otherwise and to be handling the PTSD in a
>>>>>>> surprisingly
>>>>>>> mentally healthy way even before I got into counseling for it.
>>>>>>> Also, it
>>>>>>> seemed to me that it might be helpful for me to know if the OCB had
>>>>>>> crossed
>>>>>>> the line somewhere in what they communicated to the guide dog
>>>>>>> program when
>>>>>>> they submitted the O&M assessment the program required. I had been
>>>>>>> quite
>>>>>>> open with the interviewer from GDB, and I did give them a release of
>>>>>>> information from the counselor I was still seeing for the PTSD, then
>>>>>>> chatted
>>>>>>> about it in session while going through the status check part of the
>>>>>>> conversation. The counselor's input matched with my general
>>>>>>> perception of
>>>>>>> my own reality -- still got a ways to go, but doing well, can expect
>>>>>>> a good
>>>>>>> outcome, have coping skills to use in moving along, etc., etc. She
>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>> tell me what she planned to report to GDB, or what she did report,
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> seemed pretty professional of her, so I didn't really worry about
>>>>>>> it. She
>>>>>>> struck me as the type to do her job as she should, which was to give
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> accurate report on my mental health status...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I did want to discuss the issue with the interviewer from GDB,
>>>>>>> though, to
>>>>>>> find out what was going on there, how to correctly translate their
>>>>>>> statement
>>>>>>> from the letter, and to find out what I needed to do to resolve the
>>>>>>> issue in
>>>>>>> the event I decided to reapply at the appropriate time... No return
>>>>>>> communication. Tried the boss... Nope! At that point, I noticed
>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>> seem to have ordered a poodle to be delivered to my home and had
>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>> things to do than worry about what a bunch of strangers thought of
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> dangerous crazy I must be. Doesn't matter to me at all and doesn't
>>>>>>> affect
>>>>>>> me in any way, so Bob's your uncle! Mitzi lives! /evil grin/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Black listing people based on rumor and innuendo and possibly flat
>>>>>>> out lies
>>>>>>> has got to go!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:36 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guide Dogs of America and GDB for believing fabricated stories. The
>>>>>>> "busy
>>>>>>> body" I referred to in my post is someone who fabricates stories
>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>> locally and she is known to do this for years. In other words, she
>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> have much real credibility aroound here and wwe're glad she moved
>>>>>>> out of
>>>>>>> town although we see her around from time to time. She personally
>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>> like me for my refusal to be intimidated by her and that I am LGBT.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know that people get good dogs from them and that's fine. I just
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> never go back there again. I don't dump on either school and respect
>>>>>>> people's choices as to where they wish to get their dog from. This
>>>>>>> is all
>>>>>>> my own personal experiences with these two schools, that's all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, as a result of the refusal of services by GDA, I got turned
>>>>>>> down by
>>>>>>> GDB - with the "giving my retired guide to another person to use as
>>>>>>> a guide"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> rationale. Whatever. I'm glad I went back to TSE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whether we realize it of not, these schools talk to each other about
>>>>>>> prospective students. What I was upset about is that GDB believed
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> stories rather than finding out the truth about me and what really
>>>>>>> happened
>>>>>>> with the retired guide dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I applied to TSE, I told them about this situation because I
>>>>>>> thought
>>>>>>> they might hear it from someone other than from me. As far as TSE
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> concerned, I already had a track record with them and they accepted
>>>>>>> me back
>>>>>>> with no problem. I have had nothing but adult treatment and respect
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> TSE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
>>>>>>> <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 5:39 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hay Lyn
>>>>>>>> Witch School in california did you go to? That is crazy they
>>>>>>>> treated you
>>>>>>>> like that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 4:19 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Got that right, Marion!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Back in 1990, I went to a California guide dog school. While at the
>>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>>> I befriended a man there who was on class with me. this man's
>>>>>>>> brother was
>>>>>>>> also in the same class and the two brothers did NOT get along with
>>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>>> other. Why they were put into the same class, I don't know.
>>>>>>>> However they
>>>>>>>> did. The brother of they guy I hung out with would do stuff to
>>>>>>>> irritate
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> brother like come into the room where we were sitting and blow
>>>>>>>> cigarette
>>>>>>>> smoke at us. I asked the brother to not do this as I never did
>>>>>>>> anything
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> him and that we should be adults on class even if the two of them
>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>> along.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, after that, the instructor called the three of us -
>>>>>>>> individually -
>>>>>>>> into his office and proceeded to threaten us with being sent home
>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>> our dogs if the crap didn't stop. Well, I was VERY upset over this
>>>>>>>> treatment especially since I was doing NOTHING wrong or breaking
>>>>>>>> any of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> house rules or disrespecting any other person there. Fortunately,
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> crap
>>>>>>>> stopped and we all went home with our dogs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then, when I retired the dog and wanted to return for another one,
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> school said I violated the contract by "giving my retired dog to
>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>> person to use as a guide" - which was not true! I gave the dog to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> woman's husband for a PET as my friend already had a guide dog from
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> same school. These people moved out of state and she sent her dog
>>>>>>>> back and
>>>>>>>> then used my retired dog as her guide. They moved back here, a
>>>>>>>> local
>>>>>>>> busybody saw her with my dog and reported to the school. The
>>>>>>>> trainer came
>>>>>>>> to talk to us and I told him that I gave the dog to the husband and
>>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>>> mailed the harness back. I thought it was all clear and then I got
>>>>>>>> denied
>>>>>>>> when I applied for a dog with that school six months later. I was
>>>>>>>> denied
>>>>>>>> service by this school. that was fine - it got me to venture
>>>>>>>> across the
>>>>>>>> country to go back to TSE for my next dog and I've been with TSE
>>>>>>>> ever
>>>>>>>> since!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WE need to find the schools who respect us and not be paternalistic
>>>>>>>> towards
>>>>>>>> us and stick with their program! You're right, marion, the schools
>>>>>>>> EXIST
>>>>>>>> because of the blind people who want guide dogs and they must
>>>>>>>> realize this
>>>>>>>> and be respectful towards us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala"
>>>>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 2:32 AM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>>> I object to the characteristic of the guide dog consumer as a
>>>>>>>>> "beggar". Guide dog training programs raise millions of dollars
>>>>>>>>> each year
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> with the assertion that they are doing something beneficial and
>>>>>>>>> enhancing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> for the blind. Donors - many of whom are their own consumers -
>>>>>>>>> donate
>>>>>>>>> these millions with the same intent. If it were not for us, those
>>>>>>>>> employed by the training programs would not be earning their
>>>>>>>>> livings.
>>>>>>>>> The idea that we have no say and must settle for whatever we
>>>>>>>>> receive
>>>>>>>>> with no rights to address abuse or maltreatment is archaic. Most
>>>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> programs obviously view their blind consumers as nothing more than
>>>>>>>>> wards
>>>>>>>>> who are unable to govern their own lives, let alone take care of a
>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>> What other reason would they have for not transferring ownership
>>>>>>>>> upon
>>>>>>>>> completion of the program? I have heard many justifications and
>>>>>>>>> rationalizations for this paternalistic practice but none of them
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> convincing. It is time for us to discard the notion that we are
>>>>>>>>> beholden
>>>>>>>>> to the training programs and demand to be treated equitably and
>>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>>>> dignity many of these programs mistakenly assert they provide.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brittney N. Mejico"
>>>>>>>>> <brittneymejico at verizon.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 7:08 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>> Do we have rights as guide dog users? Most schools give us our
>>>>>>>>>> dogs for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> free or they charge a small fee that I think is extremely cheap.
>>>>>>>>>> Beggers can't be choosers I guess. I think we should be
>>>>>>>>>> informed of
>>>>>>>>>> any alergy or behavior problem but sometimes we aren't. I think
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> schools try there best we can't blame them for things that they
>>>>>>>>>> may have
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> missed. My guide has alergies, I found this after I brought her
>>>>>>>>>> home. I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> contacted the school I got her from, and they helped me find a
>>>>>>>>>> food
>>>>>>>>>> that didn't cause her problems. A lot of people I know there
>>>>>>>>>> guide dogs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> have alergies, I don't know why, I guess things just happen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Lyn Gwizdak
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 2:43 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>>>>>> As a side discussion to this, it seems to me that many more dogs
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> cropping up with one kind or another allergy these days. When I
>>>>>>>>>> lived
>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>> east I never really encountered this problem until I moved to
>>>>>>>>>> California.
>>>>>>>>>> Now I hear that the dogs in the east coast have this problem as
>>>>>>>>>> well -
>>>>>>>>>> actually dogs all over the US. Is this my imagination or are the
>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>> coming out of the schools now actually having more allergies?
>>>>>>>>>> Input
>>>>>>>>>> anyone?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Bill of Rights thing sounds good to me. I think the schools
>>>>>>>>>> do what
>>>>>>>>>> they can to try to make sure that the dogs we get are in good
>>>>>>>>>> health.
>>>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>>>> these same dogs go through the hands of puppy raisers who either
>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> dog to suceed as a guide for a blind person or they want it to
>>>>>>>>>> fail so
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> can keep it as a pet (I actually encountered a puppy raiser like
>>>>>>>>>> this -
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> got found out and dropped from the program.). I wonder if the
>>>>>>>>>> only info
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> a given dog is only that provided by the puppy raiser in their
>>>>>>>>>> reports
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> the school. then there are the problems that nobody forsees like
>>>>>>>>>> regional
>>>>>>>>>> allergies or other problems that come up after the dog is exposed
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> something as a ongoing thing after it goes out with a graduate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> JUst wondering about these things. And then a dog is a living
>>>>>>>>>> being and
>>>>>>>>>> there's no guarentees.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Irving"
>>>>>>>>>> <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:43 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Marion, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Consumers shall receive verbal and written notification by the
>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>> when a food allergy has been identified by the puppy raiser and
>>>>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>>>>> assigned veterinarian. With holding such vital information
>>>>>>>>>>> could have
>>>>>>>>>>> devastating results for the guide dog team.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala"
>>>>>>>>>>> <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 3:26 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Lisa and All: Bill of Rights
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me ask you to complete this statement as it pertains to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> issues you raise. Please keep the statement succinct, about one
>>>>>>>>>>>> or two
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> sentences. Anyone else who wants to take a stab at it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> welcome to do
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> so. As a guideline, here is the statement that would precede
>>>>>>>>>>>> this one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> a. Consumers shall expect that every effort shall be made
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> provide dogs in excellent health and appropriate temperament
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, complete this statement to provide that the program
>>>>>>>>>>>> discloses
>>>>>>>>>>>> this information:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The guide dog training program shall disclose ....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I look forward to your input on our Bill of Rights!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> fraternally yours,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Irving"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:16 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] when should schools give information about dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> and re issued guides
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe the school has an obligation to be up front with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> student. I respect that the school doesn't want to set the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> student
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or the dog up for frustration and failure. This is what I base
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> belief on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My first guide dog was a sweet and stubborn Goldie. She was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> finicky
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eater too. The school said nothing about her propensity to not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eat.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, the puppy raiser did tell me on the sly. I was told
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the "get-go" my Goldie was a fussy eater. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> puppyraisers used
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unconventional ways to get her to eat. They sprinkled
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Parmashon
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cheese on her food. That's all right by me. They also 'fessed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> slipping her people food. I'm glad they told me. It helped me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the alert.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My second dog, Louie, was a ever hungry Labrador. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> puppyraisers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> said something about all of his allergies and how he needed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>>>>>>> food. I disregarded what they said because I figured if my dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>>>>>> various food allergies the school would know and they would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Louie is the dog I returned because I thought he had
>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavioral
>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues. No, he had very severe food allergies which explained
>>>>>>>>>>>>> why he
>>>>>>>>>>>>> learned to get the bungy cords off the trash cans and feast.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He also
>>>>>>>>>>>>> feasted on animal feces too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bernie, my third guide dog, probably has some food allergies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanting a sad repeat of the previous food related experiences
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Louie, I nipped the problem in the bud. That is, Bernie ate
>>>>>>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different dog foods that left him with gooey poo. Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eats a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fresh and whole food quality dog food. The joke is, I can eat
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog's food if I really want a truly healthy and balanced
>>>>>>>>>>>>> diet.{In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bernie's food is: salmon, barley, beets, carrots and ginger
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and other
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> items{.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie , ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:05 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quite true. Though I'd be happy if the puppy raiser would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say, the dog was a habitual counter surfer. Though they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't, for fear of getting their puppy dropped from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I figure knowledge is power, and I'm a big girl who won't go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nuts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little problems. But you're probably right that no one is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me all I'd like to know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tracy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just comparing it to what we know about the guides we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> receive
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not reissues. They normally don't tell us about those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> receive a nonreissue, so I wouldn't really expect them to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it was a reissue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:20 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think I buy your argument. There could be plenty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behaviors I might never think to mention. For example, Ben
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> empties on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route. The best I've managed to do is teach him to pull
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first. To
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me, this is a very undesirable behavior, but it did not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occur to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the matching process to say so, any more than I would think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mention
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a shoe salesman that I don't want my shoe laces coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> untied
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every 5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personally, I'd like to at least be made aware of any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the school is aware of, so I could either take immediate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steps to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, or decide I don't want to deal with it at all. You can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bet,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time, I'll say very loudly that I don't want a dog who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> empties on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> route.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then they'll probably give me a counter surfer instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <grimace.>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Peggy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thinking about it, you probably don't even really need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't work, if its not something that is going to impact
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason I can think of that a handler would need to know is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some kind of medical condition where it is going to need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prescription
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> food, or baths every couple weeks, or something else that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real hassel and/or cost a lot more money than usual. But
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think a handler should know this about any dog regardless
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As long as the reissue matches what the new handler wants,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is specific in what they want, there shouldn't be any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous handler returned the dog because they didn't like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the dog scavenged a lot or counter surfed, etc, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too much either because if the new handler specifically
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a major food distraction issue, they'd want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> request a dog
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too food distracted, or ideally, who doesn't have a food
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distraction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 6:29 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ownerifitdoesn'tworkout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just it, you have no idea why the match didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work, I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> curious
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to find out, but schools don't always provide that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current Seeing Eye dog is a reissued dog and she is one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have ever had. As I said I'll always wonder why her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work out but she is wonderful ... she was taken back to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-evaluated and whatever else they have to do. She
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lived in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructor's offices for supervision for quite a while.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determined
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that she was still workable and was then matched with me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out wonderful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Sarah Clark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ifitdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think you can turn down all reissues, or classify
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same category. True that an occasional dog that is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sent back for unpleasant reasons like being too hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handler, or certain health conditions that wouldn't stop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dog
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working but that the handler didn't want to deal with,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are sent back for reasons that are not negative at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> walked too fast for the handler and they got home and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they couldn't slow the dog down (this happened to my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> husband
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many years ago). Maybe it just wasn't a good match. Or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lived in a very hot climate and the dog just couldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handle the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extreme
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heat (also happened with someone I know).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't think twice about taking a reissue if the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinks the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a good match for me and what I'm looking for. Its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also true
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the experience under their belt so are often more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seasoned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> younger dogs. Though it is clear that some applicants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because each school I have applied to has asked during
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interview
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be open to having one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sarah & Miguel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itdoesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know a guy who had a guide who had been reissued.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guy who got himself arrested and a jail term and the dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> him and my friend got this same dog. Boy, what stories
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this dog
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have told if he could talk! It was a very nice dog and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for my friend and she had a good long working life.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 1:24 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'tworkout with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi there, Tami and Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The more I contemplate the re issuance of a guide dog,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much it means to me when someone gives me a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deserve as many chances as we can give them; first time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or re
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issued.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa and Bernie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guide Dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] should guides be given a second
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn'twork out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brittney,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm glad you asked this question. That's one of those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> policies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran across while researching for owner-training, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion was very negative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since then, I've heard of enough positive experience
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reissued after being returned to have a more favorable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> view
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of what I've heard is from people who have done
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-issued
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs or from people who know people... /smile/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I get
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and understand the reasoning others have explained,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the most part. There will certainly be times when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is true of matches in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for whether you're over-reacting... As a still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty new
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat experienced guide dog handler, also an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner-trainer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-taught handler, I've been observing the attitudes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of handlers at or just above my level of experience as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> closely as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those of the long-timers. I can watch my peers in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself a reality check as to how I'm coming along not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maturity as a handler while I'm learning from those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with much
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So here's my observation, based not just on myself but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generalized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group of other first time handlers going through or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> team building phase: We over-react. To everything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad, the mundane... It is all new and exciting and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightening and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wonderful and awful, all beyond belief. We popped out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dinner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evening, and at the restaurant there was just this one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one would have noticed beyond our table... Outwardly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remained
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responded correctly and it was all okay. Inwardly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /lol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OMG! How can this be? What can it mean? Oh, no,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then I noticed nothing had actually happened that was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fuss and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got over it. /smile/ More and more, it's all old
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hat, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still freak out just fine over absolutely nothing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for working through bad habits in your re-issue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog... I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are right in their observations that during the first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> year or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always be something that will make you absolutely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crazy about
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your first dog, these will be far more magnified in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those you work with later on as a truly experience
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dhandler.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to be dealt with and modified, certainly, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habit for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you yet to deal with those ups and downs. So you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really have
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way through it and notice every little thing and try
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figure out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counteract and... Well, on and on. It just takes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awhile for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become havit and natural. I've only been there for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor blips where I freak out over nothing -- and that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nice!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good luck with your dog; sounds like you're coming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> building phase and are starting on the next one --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> falls together and you're just you working your guide.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /smile/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that, and trying to hold onto that feeling as I move
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for granted phase.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Brittney N. Mejico
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:20 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] should guides be given a second owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out with the first owner?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My dog had another handler before me. I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given another handlerbecause the dog picksup a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are really hard to get rid of. I love my dog very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muchand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> harvard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed my life, but it took me a year to stop a lot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of her
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> habbits, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we still have some work to do. What do you guys
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think? am I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reacting?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lirving1234%40cox.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.n
>>>>>>> et
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgloba
>>>>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pshald%40neb.rr.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgloba
>>>>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/goldflash9%40sbcgloba
>>>>>>> l.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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