[nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
Brenda
bjnite at windstream.net
Tue Feb 1 02:09:29 UTC 2011
I think some of the problem is with the "Blind Centers" and the
self-serving people there along with other social workers who create the
problems. The guide dog schools need to be very strongly encouraged to
listen to animal control and the handlers and not hold these
destructive, well-meaning organizations making themselves feel good
while pretending to help blind people. I have heard about Leader
repoing a dog and Fidelco, but not sure who the other agency was and
what the reasons given to the handler (true or not) were. Sounds like
although ownership is the ideal, the school can find a way around that
to repo a dog if they really want to. Also, couldn't the handlers who
had their hguides' harnesses yanked have bought other harnesses
elsewhere just as a owner/trainer would?
Also, when a dog is repoed, is there warning or does the school just
show up on the doorstep? If there is some warning, can the NFB provide
legal assistance to get a stay to see what the real problem is an dmake
sure all the info is given to the school? A law would be nice, but
guide dog users is a small group in the whole scheme of things and will
take more time and some agreement. But mass education of handlers to
contact the NFB or other designated group for assistance might prevent
them from losing their dog. I say contact the NFB because although you
may have recourse to contact your school, the handler may need outside
assistance.
I continue to learn from this list and am glad it is here.
Brenda
Brenda
On 1/31/2011 8:34 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
> Dear All,
> I believe the only time a dog should be removed from a consumer is
> when there is objective third-party evidence of abuse. I am of the
> opinion that a training program cannot make that decision because they
> cannot be objective.
> Those on this list may remember the case in which a couples
> harnesses were repossessed by Leader Dogs for the Blind because of
> allegations of abuse and assertions one of the dogs was acting out
> aggressively. (This was at the time when Leader transferred
> ownership.) Animal Control made an unannounced visit and reported that
> there was fresh water down, plenty of food, the dogs were well fed,
> well groomed and one of them even had its nails painted. The Animal
> Control officer said there was no evidence of abuse or neglect.
> However, one of the allegations was from an employee from the Division
> of Blind Services Orientation & Adjustment Center who told Leader that
> the couple was barred from the O&A Center because of the dogs
> aggression. Because this person worked for the center, her report
> carried a lot of weight.
> When I call Ed Hudson, the Director of the O&A center, I was told
> that there had never been a complaint about this person's dog and they
> were not banned from the Center. The person who filed the complaint
> was demoted. However, it was too late, as Leader had already taken
> action.
> I believe we are consumers who are capable of handling and caring
> for our dogs without the interference of the custodial, paternalistic
> training programs who think they know better. I have heard a number of
> complaints of dogs being repossessed without just cause and with no
> due process. It happens more frequently than anyone wants to believe.
> All of this started with my message seeking consumers who have been
> mistreated by Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation. Within a few short hours
> of posting this message, I have heard from four more people reporting
> similar treatment at the hands of Fidelco, as well as two consumers
> sharing information about another training program. I believe there
> are there will be many more who will come forward and still more who
> will not because of their fears of reprisal from the training program.
> This sort of intimidation must stop and we, as consumers engaged in
> collective action, have the power to put an end to it!
>
> fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 3:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>
>
>> Oh my, one more comment on this topic and I'm going to keep my big
>> mouth shut because I believe in respecting people's opinions, or I
>> try to. Just because someone isn't working a dog as often as someone
>> else is working their dog doesn't make them a bad handler. There are
>> times when the personal needs of a family have to take top priority
>> over a dog ... such as sick kids, cold winters, etc. We, those of us
>> with children, are not neglecting our dogs, mine gets walked when I
>> can, she gets worked in stores and at appointments, resturaunts,
>> etc. She gets out of the house everytime I go anywhere, whether it
>> be for a short car trip or a 5 mile walk ... but there are days when
>> neither of these things happens. She gets brushed, fed, taken out to
>> park, etc. Just because I am not working my dog as often as some of
>> you are out there does not mean that she should be taken back by the
>> school!!! Everyone has needs when they apply for a dog, which the
>> school knows about, they and only they can decide if a person needs a
>> dog or not ... we will not be going out today, tomorrow, or probably
>> Wednesday either ... we are in a winter weather warning, right now
>> everything's covered with ice, then it's supposed to snow ... call SE
>> because I'm not working my dog for three days, I guess they should
>> come take her back!!! Wow!!
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Jordan Gallacher
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:08 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> Julie,
>> If you have a dog, you have the responcibility for that dog and its
>> needs.
>> This is where a guide dog school should repo a dog.
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:00 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>> Jordan,
>>
>> Oh my! I don't know what to say. First you tell Rebecca that what she
>> chooses to do is out of your domain, but then proceed to tell her that
>> retirement was the right choice.
>>
>> Then what you suggest about leaving an infant unattended to take the
>> dog for
>>
>> a walk is called neglect. It is a very criminal offense, can land
>> you in
>> jail and will result in your child being placed in foster care.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jordan Gallacher"
>> <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>>> That is out of my domain to tell you what you should do, but you did
>>> the
>>> right thing by retiring the dog. It really comes down to some major
>>> time
>>> management skills. Placed in yuour shoes, I would have taken care
>>> of the
>>> child, and once she is settled down, I would take a quick walk with the
>>> dog
>>> to keep the dog's skills up. I would say no more than 5 to 10 minutes.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:17 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Logestically speaking, what would you have a person do in the
>>> situation I
>>> described to you? Have you ever cared for another human being? Do
>>> you know
>>> what it takes on both a practical and emotional level? I retired my
>>> dog,
>>> but
>>> assumming that there is a middle ground, how would you suggest I
>>> meet the
>>> dog's needs and the human family member's needs while making sure
>>> that I
>>> stay physically and emotionally healthy?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Jordan Gallacher
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:09 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> I will tell you right now that the dog's needs are just as important as
>>> human needs.I don't care if you have a sick family member or not.
>>> If you
>>> get a dog, you need to take care of it.
>>> Jordan-----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:02 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Jordan,
>>>
>>> First of all, a school with such an attitude can take their dog back. I
>>> don't need or want a dog that badly.
>>> Secondly, most people don't intend to only go out once a week with
>>> their
>>> dog. I know I didn't. I got to the point with my daughter though
>>> that this
>>> is what happened. You can't leave an infant home alone, and they
>>> sleep and
>>> eat at times that the rest of the world does not. I found that my
>>> daughter's
>>> bedtime was also my time to rest, and when I wasn't doing that, it
>>> was my
>>> time to do laundry, hang with my husband, stay in touch with
>>> friends, play
>>> on the computer, basically tasks I could do in my house. Getting a baby
>>> ready to go out requires you pack up half the house. It isn't
>>> difficult,
>>> but
>>> it is time consuming.
>>> I found that it was easier and easier to just not take my dog because
>>> getting the dog ready required yet even more planning, not much, but
>>> enough
>>> that it did add up.
>>> Also, add a kid that is sick to the mix and you have even more fun.
>>> And in
>>> my case, these were garden variety illnesses, a stomach bug that lasted
>>> for
>>> two or three days, an ear infection, and most recently a nasty case of
>>> RSV.
>>> I left my house just once to take my daughter to the doctor. I was home
>>> taking care of her during the day, and when my husband got home, you
>>> can
>>> bet
>>> I wasn't wanting to go out anyplace. I was exausted from making sure my
>>> daughter breathed properly, from giving her her breathing treatments,
>>> monitoring her fever, making sure she drank and went potty, and that
>>> sort
>>> of
>>> thing.
>>> Please be a little kinder in your judgements. Most people are not out
>>> trying
>>> to screw the system. And most people have to think of other things
>>> beyond
>>> "what's best for the dog". The dog lives in a family and other family
>>> members have needs that will at times trump the dog's needs.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Jordan Gallacher
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:28 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> The only reason for not getting out with your dog is if you are
>>> injured or
>>> if the weather is hazardous to the dog. Well, in the latter, you
>>> shouldn't
>>> even be out in it if the weather is that bad. If you get a dog and
>>> only
>>> use
>>> it once a week, that is a waste of time for the school and you and
>>> eventually the school will find out. Just remember that there are
>>> cameras
>>> everywhere these days and it is highly possible that any thing ccan be
>>> relayed to the school..
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:20 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> I think to say that someone should not have a dog if he/she gets out
>>> with
>>> it
>>> once a week, or for whatever reason is extremely subjective and
>>> judgmental.
>>> I think, though, if I got a dog and the school found that I was
>>> using that
>>> dog as a pet and was rarely getting out with it or a ariety of other
>>> kinds
>>> of things, it would be well within their right to not give me the
>>> opportunity to have another from their school.
>>>
>>> On Jan 30, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes,. If you only use the dog once a week, you should not have the
>>>> dog.
>>>> .
>>>> Jordan
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:56 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>> Jordan, you hae some pretty amazing ideas on other topics; yet you
>>>> want
>>> your
>>>> school to have a year's right to remove your dog. First of all, how
>>>> can
>>>> it
>>>> necessarily be proved that the dog isn't being used for the original
>>>> purpose. Second, what is that. I mean, what kind of flexibility is
>>>> there
>>> in
>>>> that statement. Let's say I get a dog but I only go out once a
>>>> week. Is
>>> that
>>>> mishandling of the dog? In a way, yes, or at least it is poor
>>>> stewardship
>>>> because of the cost of training one. Should that dog be removed
>>>> from me.
>>>> People hae ideas that we are mistreating our dogs all of the time.
>>>> Who is
>>>> going to prove that I am. How are you going to determine if I am a
>>>> valid
>>>> user in a year if you haven't determined that by the time I leave. If
>>>> word
>>>> filters down that I sold the dog to a dog fighter or did something
>>>> equally
>>>> weird, and that word got out, I should never again be allowed to have
>>>> another, and I guess I think it would even be fair if that was shared
>>>> with
>>>> other schools.
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 30, 2011, at 2:40 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, the school needs to have a way to make sure that the dog is being
>>> used
>>>>> properly and have an easy way to take back the dog if need be.
>>>>> You can
>>> go
>>>>> through the entire training process and get home and never use, mis
>>>> handle,
>>>>> etc the dog.
>>>>> Jordan
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Nimer Jaber
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:36 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>> Jordan,
>>>>>
>>>>> I find this to be ludicrous. If the school trusted you enough after
>>>>> their extensive app process to get you there, to train you, to hand
>>>>> over the dog to you and allow you to leave their campus, surely they
>>>>> can be comfortable enough to give you ownership? What is the point of
>>>>> an application if they're not giving you ownership and they're going
>>>>> to make sure that you take careo f your dog for a year? Shouldn't
>>>>> they
>>>>> just do that instead of an application process lasting months,
>>>>> requiring a home interview, countless references, etc etc? Just to
>>>>> clarify, I agree with the interview process, I just find that the
>>>>> schools retaining ownership to be silly. This would save them costs.
>>>>> This would save them the headache. And as has already been pointed
>>>>> out, we aren't children. If someone can't handle their dog, there are
>>>>> channels that can be followed to get that animal removed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30/01/2011, Jordan Gallacher <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Here is how ownership should be. The school should own the dog
>>>>>> for no
>>>>> more
>>>>>> than the first year or until the school knows that the user is
>>>>>> properly
>>>>>> using the dog.
>>>>>> Jordan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Steven Johnson
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:04 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users';
>>>>> 'Blind
>>>>>> Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is an interesting idea. One thing that I don't believe you
>>>>>> touched
>>>>> on,
>>>>>> or may have indirectly, is the issue of ownership which has been an
>>>>> ongoing
>>>>>> issue of discussion among the dog guide community and NAGDU for a
>>>>>> very
>>>>> long
>>>>>> time. This might be one way to at least bring this a little
>>>>>> closer to
>>>>>> creating something that addresses this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, an interesting idea. I will be eager to hear what others
>>>>>> think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:48 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Cc: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The situation Marion posted about concerning Fidelco's removal of
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> from graduates without detailed bonified reasons for doing so along
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> other issues concerning the treatment of students in training and
>>>> gradutes
>>>>>> of guide dog programs is leading me to believe that perhaps the best
>>>>>> way
>>>>> to
>>>>>> address them is through legislation I'll refer to as a "Guide Dog
>>>>> Handler's
>>>>>> Bill of Rights." Such legislation would require guide dog programs
>>>>>> among
>>>>>> other things to give valid reasons for the removal of someone's
>>>>>> dog and
>>>> an
>>>>>> appeals procedure to be put in place should a guide dog handler
>>>>>> feel
>>>>> he/she
>>>>>>
>>>>>> has been wrongly accused of mistreatment of the dog. Yes it's true
>>>>>> there
>>>>> are
>>>>>>
>>>>>> irresponsible guide dog handlers among us just as there are
>>> irresponsible
>>>>>> individuals in our society. This is no reason to treat the blind
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The failure of Fidelco to give the graduate in question valid
>>>>>> reasons
>>> for
>>>>>> the removal of the dog is a situation we should not tolerate and
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to
>>>>> put
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a stop to. Leader Dogs has also behaved in a similar way towards its
>>>>>> graduates. If memory serves me correctly a Leader Dog Graduate's dog
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> removed from them during a recent national convention. And as I
>>>>>> recall
>>>>> there
>>>>>>
>>>>>> was insufficient reasons for the removal of that dog from its
>>>>>> handler.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights could require all guide dog
>>>>> programs
>>>>>> to give their graduates full ownership of their dogs upon successful
>>>>>> completion of their programs. I emphasize the word "Successful."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another issue the legislation could address is communication
>>>>> between
>>>>>>
>>>>>> guide dog handlers and puppy raisers. In most cases this isn't an
>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>> Sadly there is at least one U.S. guide dog organization that
>>>>>> refuzes to
>>>>>> offer their graduates and puppy raisers the opportunity to
>>>>>> communicate
>>>>>> directly with each other. The Seeing Eye only permits communication
>>>>> between
>>>>>> the two parties through the school. It removes all contact
>>>>>> information
>>>>> from
>>>>>> correspondence from notes passed between the two parties. Such a
>>>> custodial
>>>>>> practice also subjects both parties to censorship of such
>>>>>> correspondence
>>>>> by
>>>>>> the school. Has this organization and others that may have similar
>>>>> practices
>>>>>>
>>>>>> forgotten that they're dealing with adults who must learn to manage
>>> their
>>>>>> life's affairs including how communication between themselves and
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> dog's puppy raiser will occur if it does at all. This decision
>>>>>> should
>>>> rest
>>>>>> with the parties in question and not the dictates of a guide dog
>>>>>> program
>>>>>> that thinks it is doing the right thing when in reallity it is doing
>>> more
>>>>>> harm than good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A guide dog handler's Bill of Rights would require guide dog
>>>>>> programs
>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> establish procedures for facilitating direct communication
>>>>>> between its
>>>>>> graduates and puppy raisers and would prohibit the removal of
>>>>>> contact
>>>>>> information it may pass between them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A number of Seeing Eye graduates have discussed this matter
>>>>>> with the
>>>>>> school only to receive one excuse after another. And oh yes. As was
>>>>>> told
>>>>> to
>>>>>> Marion by Fidelco concerning the graduate who's dog was wrongly
>>>>>> removed
>>>>> the
>>>>>> same old fashion voodoo about confidentiality and privacy are touted
>>>>>> concerning direct communication between puppy handlers and guide dog
>>>>> school
>>>>>> graduates. Programs like the Seeing Eye and others with similar
>>> practices
>>>>>> would do well to enter the new Milennium on this matter or face the
>>>>>> possibility of a legislative mandate to do so. Guide dog handlers
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> right to learn about their dog's up-bringing. Who best to provide
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> information than the dog's puppy raiser.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One Seeing Eye Instructor told me that when one adopts a child
>>>>>> contact
>>>>>> information for the child's former parents is withheld. The same
>>>>>> should
>>>> be
>>>>>> done in the case of guide dog puppy raisers and SE'S graduates. I
>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>> be pressed to want such information from an adoption agency in the
>>>>>> first
>>>>>> place. As the child becomes a part of the family and begins to share
>>>>> his/her
>>>>>>
>>>>>> background I'd have a way to get the information I need to be a more
>>>>>> effective parent. A dog is unable to communicate such information to
>>>>>> its
>>>>>> owner. I have had guide dogs from several guide dog schools and
>>>>>> had no
>>>>>> issues with communication between myself and the dog's raiser. I
>>>>>> have
>>>> very
>>>>>> specific requirements any future guide dog program would need to
>>>>>> me if
>>>> I'm
>>>>>> to seek training from them. Because all guide dog programs have one
>>>>>> less
>>>>>> then desireable practice or another switching schools to address the
>>>> puppy
>>>>>> raiser communication issue is not an option. No self-respecting
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> individual should be put in such a predicament. Let's make sure
>>> graduates
>>>>> of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> all guide dog programs have the opportunity to communicate directly
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> their dog's puppy family if they choose to do so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These are just two issues a "Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights"
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> address. I'm sure folks on these lists can think of more. It's an
>>>>>> idea
>>>>> worth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> considering to help put an end to practices many of us find
>>>>>> demeaning
>>> and
>>>>>> offensive. Thanks for reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>>>>> et
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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