[nagdu] Barking
Cindy Ray
cindyray at gmail.com
Tue Feb 1 02:59:13 UTC 2011
My dog barks some because our pound pup barks at everything, but he is somewhat discriminating about it, and he never barks in hotel rooms. I think he would if I was in any danger though.
On Jan 31, 2011, at 8:47 PM, Marion Gwizdala wrote:
> Pete,
> Oh, don't get me wrong, Sarge can certainly fill the neighborhood with his barks....and they sound as big as he is! He just doesn't bark out of anxiety when left alone but I am sure he barks when people get his dander up! This is another myth of the training programs....that guide dogs shouldn't bark! I want people to know there is a huge dog in the house and I intentionally do obedience in the morning and afternoon when the hoodlums are walking home from school!
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 9:35 PM
> Subject: [nagdu] Count Johnny In
>
>
>> Hello Marion and everyone,
>>
>> Speaking of quiet dogs Johnny only barks on very rare occasions.
>> Believe it or not since we moved last August we have yet to hear him bark in
>> our new place. A joke around here is that when we moved we left a few things
>> behind including Johnny's barker. I told Mary that if we visit our old
>> apartment we'll need to look for it so he'll bark for us in the
>> future.---But seriously he's just a very quiet boy and his barker is present
>> and accounted for. People here hardly notice him and some don't even know
>> when he's around he's that quiet.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>> -- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 7:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>> Dear All,
>> I believe there is a little mythology that some training programs assert
>> as fact in an effort to manipulate consumers. One such piece of mythology is
>> the belief that a guide dog cam "lose its training". In 1990, I was
>> seriously injured by a fall from a bus. I spent three weeks in the hospital
>> followed by four months in a wheelchair. When I was finally able to walk, I
>> picked up my dog's harness and we never missed a beat!
>> Currently, I use my guide dog about 75% of the time. I believe my dog
>> works just as well as any other guide dog that works 100% of the time. In
>> fact, at the risk of sounding arrogant, I believe my dog is better behaved
>> when left alone than some other guide dogs since he is more accustom to it.
>> Our neighbors tell us our dogs (my wife is a guide dog user, too) do not
>> bark or whine while we are away. The "use it or lose it" myth is neither
>> psychologically nor practically founded in fact!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peggy" <pshald at neb.rr.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 3:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>
>>
>>> How long have you been a dog user??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jordan Gallacher
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:06 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> In extreme cases, weather, major illness, places that a dog would be a
>>> problem or get too stressed, etc, that is all fine, but the majority of
>>> the
>>> time, the dog needs to be used or it will lose its training.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Peggy
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:59 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Unless you have raised a family and used a dog ... you cannot judge others
>>> for how they handle situations. My dog isn't getting as much work right
>>> now
>>>
>>> as she should because I have an infant at home and it's wintertime in
>>> Nebraska. I have a backpack to put him in when the weather is nice and we
>>> can go outside but when it's single digets I'm not going to attempt to
>>> take
>>> my son out to get the dog some exercise. As for leaving my baby along for
>>> 5
>>>
>>> or 10 minutes while I take a walk ... I don't think so. Do you have any
>>> idea what could happen in 5-10 minutes?? What if there's a fire, what if
>>> he
>>>
>>> happens to climb out of his crib?? To suggest leaving a child (infant)
>>> alone for 5-10 minutes while you walk the dog is crazy. Do I take her
>>> out,
>>> sure, when we have rides to the store, to different things that come up.
>>> Is
>>>
>>> she getting a 2-3 mile walk in everyday like she should be?? No. If you
>>> feel that your not working your dog enough and retire her that's a
>>> personal
>>> choice. If I choose to keep mine, although I may not be working her as
>>> much
>>>
>>> as I like to, that's my choice. But unless you have raised changing
>>> children and working dogs ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:16 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Logestically speaking, what would you have a person do in the situation I
>>> described to you? Have you ever cared for another human being? Do you know
>>> what it takes on both a practical and emotional level? I retired my dog,
>>> but
>>>
>>> assumming that there is a middle ground, how would you suggest I meet the
>>> dog's needs and the human family member's needs while making sure that I
>>> stay physically and emotionally healthy?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Jordan Gallacher
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:09 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> I will tell you right now that the dog's needs are just as important as
>>> human needs.I don't care if you have a sick family member or not. If you
>>> get a dog, you need to take care of it.
>>> Jordan-----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>> Of PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)
>>> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:02 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> Jordan,
>>>
>>> First of all, a school with such an attitude can take their dog back. I
>>> don't need or want a dog that badly.
>>> Secondly, most people don't intend to only go out once a week with their
>>> dog. I know I didn't. I got to the point with my daughter though that this
>>> is what happened. You can't leave an infant home alone, and they sleep and
>>> eat at times that the rest of the world does not. I found that my
>>> daughter's
>>> bedtime was also my time to rest, and when I wasn't doing that, it was my
>>> time to do laundry, hang with my husband, stay in touch with friends, play
>>> on the computer, basically tasks I could do in my house. Getting a baby
>>> ready to go out requires you pack up half the house. It isn't difficult,
>>> but
>>> it is time consuming.
>>> I found that it was easier and easier to just not take my dog because
>>> getting the dog ready required yet even more planning, not much, but
>>> enough
>>> that it did add up.
>>> Also, add a kid that is sick to the mix and you have even more fun. And in
>>> my case, these were garden variety illnesses, a stomach bug that lasted
>>> for
>>> two or three days, an ear infection, and most recently a nasty case of
>>> RSV.
>>> I left my house just once to take my daughter to the doctor. I was home
>>> taking care of her during the day, and when my husband got home, you can
>>> bet
>>> I wasn't wanting to go out anyplace. I was exausted from making sure my
>>> daughter breathed properly, from giving her her breathing treatments,
>>> monitoring her fever, making sure she drank and went potty, and that sort
>>> of
>>> thing.
>>> Please be a little kinder in your judgements. Most people are not out
>>> trying
>>> to screw the system. And most people have to think of other things beyond
>>> "what's best for the dog". The dog lives in a family and other family
>>> members have needs that will at times trump the dog's needs.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Jordan Gallacher
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:28 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> The only reason for not getting out with your dog is if you are injured or
>>> if the weather is hazardous to the dog. Well, in the latter, you
>>> shouldn't
>>> even be out in it if the weather is that bad. If you get a dog and only
>>> use
>>> it once a week, that is a waste of time for the school and you and
>>> eventually the school will find out. Just remember that there are cameras
>>> everywhere these days and it is highly possible that any thing ccan be
>>> relayed to the school..
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:20 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>
>>> I think to say that someone should not have a dog if he/she gets out with
>>> it
>>> once a week, or for whatever reason is extremely subjective and
>>> judgmental.
>>> I think, though, if I got a dog and the school found that I was using that
>>> dog as a pet and was rarely getting out with it or a ariety of other kinds
>>> of things, it would be well within their right to not give me the
>>> opportunity to have another from their school.
>>>
>>> On Jan 30, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes,. If you only use the dog once a week, you should not have the dog.
>>>> .
>>>> Jordan
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:56 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>
>>>> Jordan, you hae some pretty amazing ideas on other topics; yet you want
>>> your
>>>> school to have a year's right to remove your dog. First of all, how can
>>>> it
>>>> necessarily be proved that the dog isn't being used for the original
>>>> purpose. Second, what is that. I mean, what kind of flexibility is there
>>> in
>>>> that statement. Let's say I get a dog but I only go out once a week. Is
>>> that
>>>> mishandling of the dog? In a way, yes, or at least it is poor stewardship
>>>> because of the cost of training one. Should that dog be removed from me.
>>>> People hae ideas that we are mistreating our dogs all of the time. Who is
>>>> going to prove that I am. How are you going to determine if I am a valid
>>>> user in a year if you haven't determined that by the time I leave. If
>>>> word
>>>> filters down that I sold the dog to a dog fighter or did something
>>>> equally
>>>> weird, and that word got out, I should never again be allowed to have
>>>> another, and I guess I think it would even be fair if that was shared
>>>> with
>>>> other schools.
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 30, 2011, at 2:40 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, the school needs to have a way to make sure that the dog is being
>>> used
>>>>> properly and have an easy way to take back the dog if need be. You can
>>> go
>>>>> through the entire training process and get home and never use, mis
>>>> handle,
>>>>> etc the dog.
>>>>> Jordan
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Nimer Jaber
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:36 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>
>>>>> Jordan,
>>>>>
>>>>> I find this to be ludicrous. If the school trusted you enough after
>>>>> their extensive app process to get you there, to train you, to hand
>>>>> over the dog to you and allow you to leave their campus, surely they
>>>>> can be comfortable enough to give you ownership? What is the point of
>>>>> an application if they're not giving you ownership and they're going
>>>>> to make sure that you take careo f your dog for a year? Shouldn't they
>>>>> just do that instead of an application process lasting months,
>>>>> requiring a home interview, countless references, etc etc? Just to
>>>>> clarify, I agree with the interview process, I just find that the
>>>>> schools retaining ownership to be silly. This would save them costs.
>>>>> This would save them the headache. And as has already been pointed
>>>>> out, we aren't children. If someone can't handle their dog, there are
>>>>> channels that can be followed to get that animal removed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30/01/2011, Jordan Gallacher <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Here is how ownership should be. The school should own the dog for no
>>>>> more
>>>>>> than the first year or until the school knows that the user is properly
>>>>>> using the dog.
>>>>>> Jordan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Steven Johnson
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:04 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users';
>>>>> 'Blind
>>>>>> Talk Mailing List'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is an interesting idea. One thing that I don't believe you
>>>>>> touched
>>>>> on,
>>>>>> or may have indirectly, is the issue of ownership which has been an
>>>>> ongoing
>>>>>> issue of discussion among the dog guide community and NAGDU for a very
>>>>> long
>>>>>> time. This might be one way to at least bring this a little closer to
>>>>>> creating something that addresses this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, an interesting idea. I will be eager to hear what others think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:48 PM
>>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>>> Cc: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The situation Marion posted about concerning Fidelco's removal of
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> from graduates without detailed bonified reasons for doing so along
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> other issues concerning the treatment of students in training and
>>>> gradutes
>>>>>> of guide dog programs is leading me to believe that perhaps the best
>>>>>> way
>>>>> to
>>>>>> address them is through legislation I'll refer to as a "Guide Dog
>>>>> Handler's
>>>>>> Bill of Rights." Such legislation would require guide dog programs
>>>>>> among
>>>>>> other things to give valid reasons for the removal of someone's dog and
>>>> an
>>>>>> appeals procedure to be put in place should a guide dog handler feel
>>>>> he/she
>>>>>>
>>>>>> has been wrongly accused of mistreatment of the dog. Yes it's true
>>>>>> there
>>>>> are
>>>>>>
>>>>>> irresponsible guide dog handlers among us just as there are
>>> irresponsible
>>>>>> individuals in our society. This is no reason to treat the blind like
>>>>>> children.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The failure of Fidelco to give the graduate in question valid reasons
>>> for
>>>>>> the removal of the dog is a situation we should not tolerate and need
>>>>>> to
>>>>> put
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a stop to. Leader Dogs has also behaved in a similar way towards its
>>>>>> graduates. If memory serves me correctly a Leader Dog Graduate's dog
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> removed from them during a recent national convention. And as I recall
>>>>> there
>>>>>>
>>>>>> was insufficient reasons for the removal of that dog from its handler.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights could require all guide dog
>>>>> programs
>>>>>> to give their graduates full ownership of their dogs upon successful
>>>>>> completion of their programs. I emphasize the word "Successful."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another issue the legislation could address is communication
>>>>> between
>>>>>>
>>>>>> guide dog handlers and puppy raisers. In most cases this isn't an
>>>>>> issue.
>>>>>> Sadly there is at least one U.S. guide dog organization that refuzes to
>>>>>> offer their graduates and puppy raisers the opportunity to communicate
>>>>>> directly with each other. The Seeing Eye only permits communication
>>>>> between
>>>>>> the two parties through the school. It removes all contact information
>>>>> from
>>>>>> correspondence from notes passed between the two parties. Such a
>>>> custodial
>>>>>> practice also subjects both parties to censorship of such
>>>>>> correspondence
>>>>> by
>>>>>> the school. Has this organization and others that may have similar
>>>>> practices
>>>>>>
>>>>>> forgotten that they're dealing with adults who must learn to manage
>>> their
>>>>>> life's affairs including how communication between themselves and their
>>>>>> dog's puppy raiser will occur if it does at all. This decision should
>>>> rest
>>>>>> with the parties in question and not the dictates of a guide dog
>>>>>> program
>>>>>> that thinks it is doing the right thing when in reallity it is doing
>>> more
>>>>>> harm than good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A guide dog handler's Bill of Rights would require guide dog programs
>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> establish procedures for facilitating direct communication between its
>>>>>> graduates and puppy raisers and would prohibit the removal of contact
>>>>>> information it may pass between them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A number of Seeing Eye graduates have discussed this matter with the
>>>>>> school only to receive one excuse after another. And oh yes. As was
>>>>>> told
>>>>> to
>>>>>> Marion by Fidelco concerning the graduate who's dog was wrongly removed
>>>>> the
>>>>>> same old fashion voodoo about confidentiality and privacy are touted
>>>>>> concerning direct communication between puppy handlers and guide dog
>>>>> school
>>>>>> graduates. Programs like the Seeing Eye and others with similar
>>> practices
>>>>>> would do well to enter the new Milennium on this matter or face the
>>>>>> possibility of a legislative mandate to do so. Guide dog handlers have
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> right to learn about their dog's up-bringing. Who best to provide that
>>>>>> information than the dog's puppy raiser.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One Seeing Eye Instructor told me that when one adopts a child
>>>>>> contact
>>>>>> information for the child's former parents is withheld. The same should
>>>> be
>>>>>> done in the case of guide dog puppy raisers and SE'S graduates. I
>>>> wouldn't
>>>>>> be pressed to want such information from an adoption agency in the
>>>>>> first
>>>>>> place. As the child becomes a part of the family and begins to share
>>>>> his/her
>>>>>>
>>>>>> background I'd have a way to get the information I need to be a more
>>>>>> effective parent. A dog is unable to communicate such information to
>>>>>> its
>>>>>> owner. I have had guide dogs from several guide dog schools and had no
>>>>>> issues with communication between myself and the dog's raiser. I have
>>>> very
>>>>>> specific requirements any future guide dog program would need to me if
>>>> I'm
>>>>>> to seek training from them. Because all guide dog programs have one
>>>>>> less
>>>>>> then desireable practice or another switching schools to address the
>>>> puppy
>>>>>> raiser communication issue is not an option. No self-respecting blind
>>>>>> individual should be put in such a predicament. Let's make sure
>>> graduates
>>>>> of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> all guide dog programs have the opportunity to communicate directly
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> their dog's puppy family if they choose to do so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These are just two issues a "Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights" could
>>>>>> address. I'm sure folks on these lists can think of more. It's an idea
>>>>> worth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> considering to help put an end to practices many of us find demeaning
>>> and
>>>>>> offensive. Thanks for reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> et
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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