[nagdu] GPS Training

Mon Feb 7 17:39:34 UTC 2011

Hello,

I agree with most of your points Albert, but I think Peter was saying
that tech use while at a dog guide school could be a distraction,
which is why I think GDB has their GPS training six months after
training at least, and not during training. And at TSE, they allowed
me to use my own GPS device during training, but only so long as I was
paying attention to my dog and receiving all necessary training
necessary for me to be able to graduate from the school.

Peter, tech use has nothing to do with allowing dog guide users to
leave campus during class. As has been pointed out, I don't think
there is a school that says you are absolutely not permitted to leave
the campus during your training. But during my time at TSE, I was so
busy with training, with getting bonded with my dog and with sleeping
that the last thing I wanted to do was deal with the headache of
finding transportation in a very small town five miles away from the
campus that I was at, go some place with a new dog that I barely felt
comfortable with in class let alone outside of class, possibly injure
my dog, a pedestrian or myself in the process, spend money I don't
have, all for the possibility that it _might possibly make me feel
more comfortable outside of class. Besides, on your lessons, or at
least on mine, I was allowed to pretty much pick where I wanted to get
the most work in. Also, my instructor hung back and didn't say
anything or interfere unless he thought that I was in danger or that I
was not doing something I should have been doing to make sure that my
dog and I were communicating adequately.

Dog Guide school is not and, in my opinion, ought not to be based on
any philosophy except get person and dog trained, and get them out to
be replaced by the next consumer. That's it. If you want to learn
independence, go to these blindness centers and have Voc Rehab or
whoever spend money on programs that might or might not make you
independent. It is assumed that when you get a dog, the school
evaluated you and through their evaluation they determined that you
are independent, adequately qualified to be walking on the streets and
get oriented with a cane, and aware that you now have a dog to take
care of and that you have the potential to be able to take care of
that dog. During the training, they evaluate whether you can
demonstrate the ability and the willingness to take care of that dog.
Are you reading people's messages on this list Peter? Do you
understand why it might not be such a good idea for users to go off on
their own while at dog guide schools? Do you comprehend that those who
want to aren't hindered from doing so? Or are you intentionally
spamming my inbox with repetative messages with contradictory
statements? Technology and leaving campus have nothing to do with each
other, they're completely different things, and serve completely
different purposes. Also, the danger level inherited by allowing a
brandnew dog guide user who hasn't even owned a dog before to be
allowed to travel on their own unaccompanied without an instructor to
the client, the dog and the organization is huge.

Thanks
Nimer J

On 07/02/2011, Albert J Rizzi <albert at myblindspot.org> wrote:
> I see this whole issue as intentional blindness versus unintentional
> blindness. I will be offering the word at a sermon at a local church on just
> that subject. I find that all to often those who profess to be our advocates
> stop short of oh so much. how can they, which I wholeheartedly support,
> support investments and developments of cars the blind can independently
> drive and pan the idea of a gps? All of America uses a gps why the hell
> can't the blind or the visually impaired or the legally blind. I say that
> because I firmly believe that there are more then 1.3 million blind people
> in our country, and if organizations took into consideration the entire
> print disabled community, numbering well over 30 million, I would think that
> progress would be made at break neck speeds. I would also think that the
> u.s. treasury  would have changed the shapes of our paper money had they
> never had a national advocate for the blind fight this issue and thereby not
> join the ranks of all international communities in making differently sized
> paper money for ease and independent recognition of the same. oh yeah that's
> right they have a machine or technology they sell to help you with that. how
> independent is that while we are on the subject.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of PICKRELL, REBECCA M (TASC)
> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:23 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] GPS Training
>
> Funny, I made coffee using electricity this morning. I suppose I could have
> used a woodburning stove. Oddly, nobody said I was relying too much on
> technology, they were just glad I made coffee.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Peter Donahue
> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:14 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] GPS Training
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>     These GPS systems are great but they can foster an over dependence on
> technology if one is not careful. As for using them during training getting
> accustomed to working with a new dog should be job one. GPS training can
> come later. I find it interesting that some would want the opportunity to
> use a GPS device during training but are unwilling to demand that their
> guide dog school give them the opportunity to travel unaccompanied with
> their dog prior to training completion.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "d m gina" <dmgina at samobile.net>
> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 10:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] GPS Training
>
>
> I hope the folks catch on as well as I did, learning how to put in
> addresses.
> Now will instructors let folks who have the breeze use it in training?
> Especially getting a new dog?
> I think that would be so cool if they did. I know it would be.
> I know I would ask.
>
> Original message:
>> Lisa,
>
>
>
>> That was a great explanation of our Trekker Breeze training. We've
>> modified
>> it slightly for the recent upgrades and now will include evening lectures
>> on
>> how to put in addresses from the device and your computer.
>
>
>
>> We work in Port Jefferson, Long Island for much of the training now and
>> have
>> one fun exercise that really does show you where your trust should lie.
>
>
>
>> There is a very nice pier you can walk along that juts out into the sound.
>> We have you create a landmark on shore then walk out on the pier. The
>> walkway takes a couple bends though. Then we have you use the Breeze to
>> navigate back to that landmark. Well, since you are in an open area off
>> the
>> street grid, the Breeze gives you directions by clock face angles. If you
>> were to follow them, you'd be very wet, very quickly. <grin>
>
>
>
>> Our motto during the training is Dog, Gut, Trekker, to describe the order
>> in
>> which you should trust incoming info as you travel.
>
>
>
>> When we set up the training, we decided to use other blind people to do
>> the
>> teaching of the classroom and some street work with guide dog instructors
>> and volunteers assisting on the streets to observe dog behavior and safety
>> issues.
>
>
>
>> I can't wait to get our next series of classes going in April. I love
>> training folks with the device.
>
>
>
>> Jenine Stanley
>
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>
>
>
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>> Of Lisa belville
>> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 7:28 PM
>> To: national guide dog
>> Subject: [nagdu] GPS Training
>
>
>
>> Okay, I'll try to combine all of the Breeze questions into one hopefully
>> not
>> so long missive.  I was in one of the several pilot classes the GDF
>> conducted last year, so my info may be out of date due to their modifying
>> the class.  Also, the Breeze has had several firmware updates over the
>> past
>> year, so they'll need to incorporate that into the current training.
>
>> Jenine Stanley works for the GDF and so can probably answer any questions
>> more thoroughly.
>
>> First, the Breeze training at the GDF is only open to GDF grads.  Grads
>> have
>> to have been working with their dog for at least six months and have
>> gelled
>> as a team.
>
>> You fill out an application giving specifics about where you live, what
>> kinds of environments you live in and if you live close to geographical
>> features like mountains, large lakes, etc..  This might sound trivial, but
>> features like this can cause the GPS to not work accurately or not at
>> all,depending on the circumstance.
>
>> They also ask about your hearing and how fast you can walk because these
>> can
>> also affect working with a GPS.
>
>> The training is just over two days.  The class begins on a Monday evening
>> and technically ends on a Wednesday evening, but most people didn't
>> actually
>> leave the foundation until the next morning.
>
>> We got the manual and other Breeze documentation Emailed a week or so
>> before
>> the class so we could read the manual and familiarize ourselves with
>> concepts, terminology, etc.  This really didn't help me much as far as
>> orientation to the keypad because I'm the kind of person who needs to feel
>> what's being described as it's being described.
>
>> They give out the units the evening everyone arrives and spend time with
>> orientation to the buttons and how to adjust the volume, voice rate and
>> pitch, etc.  This is so you can reliably find buttons while walking with
>> the
>> dog or find a voice rate and volume that's comfortable for you so you
>> won't
>> have to fiddle with it during training.
>
>> There are two blind instructors and a sighted person to drive the van and
>> give additional information about surroundings, etc..  One blind
>> instructor
>> walks with us and explains why the Breeze says what it does when it does.
>> The other one hangs out in the van with the other Breeze students and does
>> one on one demonstrations and explanations if anyone wants it.
>
>> The next day we start by doing different routes in different areas.
>> Smithtown and the surrounding area is fairly diverse so people get a
>> chance
>> to see how it operates while walking down a busy sidewalk full of
>> overhangs,
>> trees and glass store fronts. We cross all kinds of intersections with
>> very
>> rounded curbs, diagonal crossings, T intersections, etc.  The Breeze might
>> give some inaccurate information about what street you're on if the curb
>> is
>> really rounded, so that's why the various street crossings are included.
>
>> We go through the process of making landmarks, creating routes to
>> landmarks,
>> using routes in a vehicle or on foot, backtracking, making landmarks while
>> using the Breeze when it's off the street grid and relying only on as the
>> crow flies directions, and using those to find off the grid landmarks.
>
>> They also explain a bit of how the GPS works and how using GPS for someone
>> with no vision who is walking is a bit different than how a GPS in a car
>> operates.  IMO, this is one of the most important parts of the training
>> because we learn the limitations of the GPS and how to compensate for not
>> having the ability to glance around and take in surroundings to verify
>> what
>> the GPS is or isn't telling you.
>
>> Judging by some of the questions I've seen on the various technology list,
>> not knowing how the GPS works, combined with not being familiar with the
>> local area can be very frustrating for people, especially if they got the
>> GPS under the impression it would guide them right to a door with step by
>> step directions.  Yes, the Breeze is as accurate as a mainstream GPS, but
>> mainstream GPSs don't get sighted people to the door of their houses, but
>> can be several feet off even though the Breeze alerts them that they're at
>> the landmark.  The Breeze uses the same maps and GPS features as
>> mainstream
>> products,; there are just more specific tools to help blind people.  For
>> example, it will not always work if you're in a city with tall buildings
>> because it was originally designed to work using a vehicle that was,
>> presumably on a road with clear access to the sky.  The Buildings block
>> the
>> signal so you may not always get an accurate estimate of where you're
>> going
>> unless you move closer to the street.  It will not work reliably inside
>> most
>> buildings.  It can't get you precisely to a door, especially if that door
>> is
>> under a roof because the signal is blocked or if the signal is bouncing
>> off
>> reflective objects like windows or water.  This is why You need to know
>> what
>> the unit is telling you, along with the information you're getting from
>> your
>> dog and your own senses in order to know if you're getting the correct
>> information from the GPS., they wanted us to know how the unit acted with
>> these situations so we knew when to rely on the unit and when not to.  It
>> was emphasized several times that the GPS, just like the dog, is another
>> tool in the tool box and that all of them operate independently of each
>> other.
>
>> It's like any other technology.  Some people are very tech savvy and can
>> grasp new concepts and incorporate them into how they're already working
>> while some can't.  Toni did a good job of explaining how the GPS and the
>> dog
>> work together and how this does take some practice.  Some people may not
>> grasp this as quickly, or realize that if they stop long enough they could
>> lose their current GPS fix.  Some people may only take the time to learn
>> the
>> basics of their equipment and either not feel comfortable or just put off
>> using the advanced functions.
>
>> The GDF wants people to get the full benefit of the Breeze and how it can
>> enhance the dog/human partnership.  They pack a lot into the two day
>> training so that we can hit the ground running back home.
>
>> Lisa
>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jeninems%40wowway.com
>
>
>>   _____
>
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3425 - Release Date: 02/05/11
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dmgina%40samobile.net
>
> --
> --Dar
> skype: dmgina23
>   FB: dmgina
> www.twitter.com/dmgina
> every saint has a past
> every sinner has a future
>
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.c
> om
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%40ta
> sc.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
> org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com
>