[nagdu] shock collars used on service dogs

Sun Feb 27 22:18:11 UTC 2011

i'm gonna get in trouble here. But if used properly, shock collars
don't have to be cruelty. They should not be used by john q public but
they are not the end of the world for dogs. The problem comes when
they are not used properly. I have seen it used on a dog. My first
thoughts were like many of you, but as i saw what it was capable of i
got better understanding. It should not be a long term thing but it
can help.

On 2/27/11, Lyn Gwizdak <linda.gwizdak at cox.net> wrote:
> Yeah, these collars come in several types.  There's one that works with an
> electric "hidden" fence.  A wire is embedded in the ground aroound the
> perimeter of your yard.  A collar is on the dog with a part that has a
> couple of blunt prongs that rest against the dog's throat. When the dog
> passes over the embedded wire, it gets a shock and learns to avoid going
> over that area.  Nasty.
>
> The one the CCI grad used is another kind that looks similar to the fence
> one - with the same type of prongs.  The owner holds a little device that
> remotely sends a shock to the dog when it doesn't obey a command or barks.
> Nasty!  I see these things for sale in all the dog supply catalogs and I
> wouldn't use these.  I'll bet alot of dogs get freaked out by these as
> people can just buy these things and not have a clue as to what these things
> can do to a dog emotionally.  Cruelty.
>
> I've seen CCI dogs and I don't think they condone the use of these devices
> at all.  This spring - usually the first or second Saturday in April - at
> their Woofstock, I'll ask about this.  Our dog food man usually has a booth
> there and I'll find out when this event is so we can go.  I've gone to this
> event twice.  There are TONS of service dogs and some pet dogs as well.  Dog
> distraction city! LOL! Great practice for the dogs and fun for us.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lisa Irving" <lirving1234 at cox.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 9:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Appeal denied,service dog will not be returned to Utah
> man
>
>
>> Shock collar? Just the thought shocks me. I'm troubled about using
>> Bernie's prong collar, yet I do, but, to use a shock collar? My dog would
>> crumble.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 12:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Appeal denied,service dog will not be returned to
>> Utah man
>>
>>
>>> Quite interesting article and the reader responses.
>>>
>>> This is another thing to show that ownership needs to be given to the
>>> disabled person. There are ways to take dogs away from real abuse or
>>> neglect situations.  Glad I own Landon!
>>>
>>> Maybe CCI has some points as well. Because of the very long waiting list,
>>>
>>> people receiving service dogs really need to be using the dog as trained.
>>>
>>> Tough call. Shock collars????  I would think these would create a problem
>>>
>>> in a sensitive dog.  I don't know of any service or guide program that
>>> condones them.
>>>
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 9:55 AM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Appeal denied, service dog will not be returned to Utah
>>> man
>>>
>>>
>>>> Appeal denied, service dog will not be returned to Utah man
>>>> Published: Friday, Feb. 25, 2011 4:16 p.m. MST
>>>> By Viviane Vo-Duc, Deseret News
>>>> http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705367506/Appeal-denied-servic
>>>> e-dog-will-not-be-returned-to-Utah-man.html
>>>> 16 comments     PRINT | FONT + -  SALT LAKE CITY - A man who had
>>>> his companion dog taken away will not be getting him back any
>>>> time soon.
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Gael Yonnet's service dog Elon was taken away a month ago by
>>>> Canine Companions for Independence - the organization that
>>>> partnered him with the yellow Labrador retriever.
>>>>
>>>> At the time, the organization said Yonnet's lifestyle and job
>>>> were endangering the dog because he didn't keep Elon on a leash,
>>>> especially on trips to the mountains.
>>>>
>>>> Gael Yonnet, Family photo
>>>> Dr. Gael Yonnet, seen with his service dog, Elon, in December of
>>>> 2009, was paralyzed in a snowboarding accident in 2006. In 2009,
>>>> he received a service dog from Canine Companions for
>>>> Independence. The organization recently took the dog away from
>>>> Yonnet.
>>>>>From the archive
>>>> .Man's companion dog taken away in Utah; organization said dog in
>>>> danger - Feb. 4, 2011
>>>> http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705365793/Mans-companion-dog-t
>>>> aken-away-in-Utah-organization-said-dog-in-danger.html
>>>>
>>>> Yonnet said he understood their concern, especially after hearing
>>>> the dog was not on a leash at all times. But he claims Elon was
>>>> never in danger.
>>>>
>>>> He submitted an appeal, which included an iPetition with more
>>>> than 5,000 Utahns supporting the dog's return.
>>>>
>>>> In a letter sent to Yonnet, Corey Hudson, CEO of CCI, said after
>>>> reviewing the details of the case the staff had good reason to
>>>> believe Elon's safety was in jeopardy and to take the dog back.
>>>>
>>>> "You repeatedly allowed Elon to be off lead in unenclosed and
>>>> urban environments, which is a serious safety concern for CCI."
>>>> Hudson said.
>>>>
>>>> He also said Yonnet was very confrontational and, at one time,
>>>> had a electronic collar on Elon, which was a serious breach of
>>>> CCI's standards for treatment of its dogs.
>>>>
>>>> Yonnet can appeal the decision to the national board of Canine
>>>> Companions for Independence, which he plans to do.
>>>>
>>>> Elon is currently being taken care of by a foster family, which
>>>> Yonnet says doesn't make sense.
>>>>
>>>> "He doesn't need a loving foster home," he said. "What he needs
>>>> is his loving home, his own family, which is me."
>>>>
>>>> In March of 2006, Yonnet had a snowboarding accident, which left
>>>> him paralyzed from the waist down.
>>>>
>>>> He said Elon was trained to assist him with tasks, such as
>>>> switching lights on and off, retrieving objects from the floor
>>>> and opening doors.
>>>>
>>>> While he has been offered another service dog from a different
>>>> organization, Yonnet says he just wants his "baby" back.
>>>>
>>>> E-mail: vvo-duc at ksl.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> COMMENTS (17)
>>>> lost in DC | 4:05 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>>>> West Jordan, UT
>>>> too bad the dog is valued more than the person
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 5 Ute Fan In Utah | 4:34 p.m. Feb. 25,
>>>> 2011
>>>> West Jordan, UT
>>>> The man breached the contract he had agreed to with the company.
>>>> I don't blame them for taking Elon, I would have sooner if I had
>>>> invested so much money into a dog. They make it pretty clear that
>>>> the dog is not yours when they lend it to you.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 5 Sarah B | 4:50 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>>>> SLC, UT
>>>> I agree with Ute Fan. This is a highly educated adult who is
>>>> fully capable of understanding and following the rules. It takes
>>>> alot to train these dogs and there is a great need. If he can't
>>>> play by the rules, then he doesn't get to play. The fact that he
>>>> abused the dog by using a shock collar is grounds enough to take
>>>> the dog away.
>>>>
>>>> I'd have much more sympathy if it was someone who was also
>>>> mentally impaired. Rebellion gets no sympathy from me. He made
>>>> his choices, despite warnings and now he has to deal with the
>>>> consequences.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 4 Jim A | 5:09 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>>>> Porter Ranch, California
>>>> I have a conflicting opinion here. First, CCI doesn't charge for
>>>> their dogs so point 1 for CCI. Second, the use of a shock collar
>>>> on a service Dog is reprehensible under any circumstance. If this
>>>> gentleman did in fact use a shock collar on this dog, that would
>>>> be grounds for removal in my book. As for the off-lead part, that
>>>> kind of depends. Sometimes a Service Dog's tasks require him to
>>>> be off lead for a short period of time, and in a city atmosphere
>>>> it could be very dangerous for the dog to be off lead. that said,
>>>> if he was letting the dog off-lead in the mountains when hiking,
>>>> as originally reported, I see less of an issue with it.
>>>>
>>>> All in all, assuming the facts presented in this story are
>>>> accurate, I have to support CCI's decision. These animals cost
>>>> way to much to train for someone to be mistreating it with a
>>>> shock collar or taking unnecessary risks it in a city
>>>> environment.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 3 UU Fan | 5:25 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>>>> Salt Lake City, UT
>>>> I agree with Sarah. Dr Y wants his "baby" back but takes no
>>>> responsibility for the fact that he is the reason that the dog
>>>> was taken away despite repeated warnings. Off leash, shock
>>>> collars, I'm appalled. I'm glad the organization is able to
>>>> monitor the health and safety of their graduate teams and proceed
>>>> to do the right thing.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 4 Beth38 | 7:05 p.m. Feb. 25, 2011
>>>> Brockton, MA
>>>> I am so glad that CCI cares enough about their dogs to remove
>>>> Elon from such an irresponsible and vindictive man. He learned
>>>> the rules during his two weeks at training to get the dog. He
>>>> KNEW that the dog would remain CCI's dog, for reasons exactly
>>>> like this one. He SIGNED a contract stating that he agreed with
>>>> everything set forth in training, and with the understanding that
>>>> they maintain ownership. Instead of working with the school when
>>>> given opportunities, he CHOSE to ignore them and yet he cried
>>>> foul when the dog was removed. Instead of handling this in a
>>>> mature manner privately with the organization, he has chosen to
>>>> lie to the general public about the situation on his numerous
>>>> webpages as well as attempt. Anyone who wants to read the truth
>>>> can visit CCI's website. And to those of you who humanize dog's
>>>> emotions and think that poor Elon must be so sad: dogs don't
>>>> think like we do. They don't mourn people. They don't look back.
>>>> Think about it. Do you think Elon mourned his puppy raiser when
>>>> the "good" doctor got him? Um. No.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 4 DisabilityAdvocate | 8:22 p.m. Feb.
>>>> 25, 2011
>>>> Alexandria, VA
>>>> Regarding "Anyone who wants to read the truth can visit CCI's
>>>> website", would you go to one half of a dispute to get unbiased
>>>> information?
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the arguments regarding the contract, it does not state
>>>> that the dog has to be on leash at all times. It does say that
>>>> local leash and licensing laws need to be followed, and they
>>>> were. Further, the ADA provides for service dogs being off leash
>>>> but under voice control.
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Yonnet is an inspiration to many disabled people. To take
>>>> away a paraplegic's dog because he was off leash on rural
>>>> mountain trails and in the hospital is sad. To further show
>>>> pictures on your website (as CCI has done) of other dogs off
>>>> leash in various environments and in another hospital makes this
>>>> even more concerning. How is Dr. Yonnet's hospital and recreation
>>>> more dangerous than that of other CCI graduates?
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 7 Krizzle | 12:09 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
>>>> Sandy, UT
>>>> To UoU Fan: Gael did in fact take responsiblity that a certain
>>>> times he did not have Elon leashed (of course many of those times
>>>> were due to safety reasons). Cesar Millan has in the past
>>>> supported the use of shock collars. They are a great use for
>>>> obedience training if used properly. And to Beth who thinks
>>>> everyone is consumed at humanizing Elon by associating them with
>>>> human emotions: animals do mourn. Elon knows he's not with Gael.
>>>> He's not receiving the same love and devotion that Gael gave him.
>>>> Elon was never in trouble.
>>>> Too many times I see animals out there being abused, neglected,
>>>> taken advantage of. And Gael who treats this dog with the utmost
>>>> respect gets him ripped out of his arms. CCI has done good for
>>>> many people but this one situation they've handled horribly.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 ADA prevails | 12:54 a.m. Feb. 26,
>>>> 2011
>>>> Eastport, MD
>>>> (1) There are numerous pictures on CCI's own web site and CCI's
>>>> own videos that show dogs leash free outside; some of which are
>>>> clearly in public areas. There are clearly two standards: one for
>>>> CCI and one for Dr. Yonnet. This does bring to question CCI's
>>>> motives or prejudice, perhaps?
>>>>
>>>> (2) CCI's leash requirements are a violationws of the Americans
>>>> with Disabilities Act (ADA), which provides latitude on leash
>>>> requirements for persons in wheelchairs. And, ADA prevails unless
>>>> a state law or contract provides more freedom for the person in
>>>> the wheelchair...not the dog. The law protects the disabled
>>>> first.
>>>>
>>>> (3) I could not, in good conscience, recommend that anyone get a
>>>> dog from CCI given the way they have treated Dr. Yonnet. It was
>>>> obvious in the pictures that Elon was very happy with Gael. It
>>>> was also obvious how much Gael loved Elon. To break these two up
>>>> has now devastated both Gael and Elon. It is absolutely cold and
>>>> heartless the way this was handled. I would never suppport nor
>>>> encourage supporting CCI given this case. CCI has no heart if it
>>>> can do this.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 Beth38 | 12:55 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
>>>> Brockton, MA
>>>> Being an inspiration to disabled people has nothing to do with
>>>> this matter. And honestly, I am a disabled person and he sickens
>>>> me with the poor way he has chosen to deal with this issue. The
>>>> dog is not his and never was. He had numerous opportunities to
>>>> work with the school to take care of safety issues and he didn't.
>>>> He didn't follow what he was told to do by the school that loaned
>>>> him this dog.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 2 Sharon Kenzer | 1:37 a.m. Feb. 26,
>>>> 2011
>>>> Eastport, MD
>>>> Dr. Yonnet and Elon were a family and an inspiration to so many
>>>> people, including the veterans that were patients of Dr. Yonnet.
>>>> While dealing with their own disabilities, it was extremely
>>>> inspiring to see the full life that Gael was living with Elon.
>>>> Elon inspired Gael to be active again, which gave hope to so many
>>>> patients dealing with their own disabilities. Elon gave such
>>>> comfort to many people, including patients, but mostly to Elon.
>>>> To think that CCI would repo this dog for a fear of what could
>>>> happen is tragic. Would one keep a child on a leash? When one
>>>> fully reads Dr. Yonnet's explanation of what transpired, which
>>>> has been consistent, there is no doubt he exercised good judgment
>>>> for Elon's safety at all times.
>>>>
>>>> Last, comments by CCI supporters repeatedly refer to their leash
>>>> requirements, however, there are CCI videos and CCI pictures
>>>> where dogs are leash free in public areas. The more I read about
>>>> this, the greater the injustice perpetrated on Gael and Elon. I
>>>> don't believe for a minute that Elon isn't suffering the loss of
>>>> Gael. CCI should return Elon.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 Love Dogs | 1:50 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
>>>> Tarzana, CA
>>>> I applaud Canine Companions for Independance (CCI) for their
>>>> decision to remove Elon from Gael. Tbe public statement from CCI
>>>> can be read on their website on this issue....and for sure, it
>>>> appears that they do not make a decision like this on a whim,
>>>> only one in 500 dogs partnered are taken back. It is sad to learn
>>>> that Gael chose to go public in such a dishonest and arrogant
>>>> way, and now loose his dog. In my heart I was praying that he
>>>> would have the sense to listen and talk to the amazing folks who
>>>> trained Elon, and appreciate the tremendous gift he was given.
>>>> His refusal to respect this highly trained dog after he received
>>>> it and his continued arrogant public threats lead me to applaud
>>>> CCI for their final decision. Thankful for what this amazing
>>>> non-profit does to help so many disabled Americans....
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 1 Ann Mc Dowell | 2:10 a.m. Feb. 26,
>>>> 2011
>>>> New York, NY
>>>> Gael and Elon were an inspiration to so many of the patients in
>>>> the hospital, particularly the veterans with disabilties and
>>>> traumatic brain injuries who were Gael's patients. They gave so
>>>> many people hope that they could live fully active lives.
>>>>
>>>> CCI's Form 990, as filed with the IRS for 2009, Schedule O
>>>> Supplemental Information (page 34) stated:
>>>> "TAsks performed by instructors at follow-up visitation include:
>>>> 2) Correction of any problems that may exist;
>>>> 5) Making certain that the dog is doing the commands initially
>>>> taught, and that they are still needed; and
>>>> 6) Beginning the process of teaching new commands, if deemed
>>>> necessary.
>>>>
>>>> Gael requested additional training from Simi in late December of
>>>> 2010. When a date was set for 1/29/10, Gael was looking forward
>>>> to meeting with Simi as he was told it was to help with items 2,
>>>> 5, 6 above. In fact, Gael took the day off from meeting with his
>>>> patients in order to train with Elon. Instead, Simi offered no
>>>> training or education and quickly informed Gael that they were
>>>> there to take Elon. That's the last time Gael saw Elon; tragic
>>>> for both Gael and Elon.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 SanB | 4:36 a.m. Feb. 26, 2011
>>>> Jupiter, FL
>>>> I have been following this story closely, and still feel that CCI
>>>> and Dr. Yonnet can resolves the issues at hand. Through all of
>>>> the anger and emotion (and we ALL have acted out in both) the
>>>> bottom line is, CCI raised an awesome companion dog, Dr. Yonnet
>>>> has bonded with Elon, loves him dearly, and was not abusing the
>>>> dog. I have read in earlier posts, Dr. Yonnet has set out to
>>>> acquire a new leash (made specifically for people in wheelchairs
>>>> that are active) that will allow him to take Elon on his mountain
>>>> trips, which will take care of the safety concerns as expressed
>>>> by CCI. I have to agree with DisabilityAdvocate above, I have
>>>> browsed CCI's website, and have seen the same pictures with other
>>>> dogs off leash, so are those dogs getting ready to be repo'd as
>>>> well? We have all experienced loss, and death, and have probably
>>>> even uttered the words "I'd do anything to get them back".
>>>> Fortunately, in this case, there is still time to get them back,
>>>> with a very clear mutual understanding of what is expected. Just
>>>> Love!
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 Angelo John Stevens | 6:51 a.m. Feb.
>>>> 26, 2011
>>>> Fort Belvoir, VA
>>>> I am going to be polite, after fighting a school system in VA who
>>>> seems to feel they can have a policy that Names ADI, an affiliate
>>>> of CCI as the sole God to all Dog training and certifications, I
>>>> have to say I see something fishy with CCI and ADI, more so when
>>>> an agency feels even with all the good they do, that they are
>>>> above the law.
>>>> They have rules which are not enforced across the board, and seem
>>>> to pick and choose who they enforce them on, based on how much
>>>> aide and or help that person can give to their fund rasing
>>>> efforts, their 50,000 dollar dogs does not mean their better dogs
>>>> then a 20,000 dog, plain and simple.
>>>> Servioce Dogs should be controllable on and off a leash, because
>>>> facts and nature dictate there will be places and times these
>>>> dogs need to be off leash in order to perform their functions.
>>>> ADA and DOJ have already stated they agree leashs are not
>>>> required for certain instances where it is unsafe to use a leash,
>>>> however if dogs can be controlled either with voice, or hand.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 Angelo John Stevens | 7:06 a.m. Feb.
>>>> 26, 2011
>>>> Fort Belvoir, VA
>>>> I am still curious why CCI retains owner ship of the dog yet
>>>> claims they give dogs for free, giving implies you no longer own
>>>> that which is given, should not the term instead be, We loan
>>>> service dogs to persons, but at any time may remove that dog if
>>>> we CCI feel you are too dangerous for that loaned dog to be in,
>>>> and then we will lie to you to meet at a mall, in order to train
>>>> you and your dog, but instead will take the dog from you, and not
>>>> ensure you the disabled person will get home safely, and threaten
>>>> you with the police as well, lets not also forget these are the
>>>> same people that want to work with wounded warriors and veterans,
>>>> our suicide rate is high enough in the military we do not need
>>>> CCI re-poing dogs from them to add fuel to that fire.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0 1000observer | 9:59 a.m. Feb. 26,
>>>> 2011
>>>> Alexandria, Va
>>>> First, CCI makes perfectly clear that they retain ownership of
>>>> their dogs. It is in every agreement that every graduate,
>>>> including the person in question, signs before accepting a CCI
>>>> dog. If you don't like it, don't accept a CCI dog. There are many
>>>> people on CCI waiting lists willing to accept the terms CCI has,
>>>> and if you accept a CCI dog, and not the terms CCI has, you are
>>>> taking that dog away from someone else who might have benefited
>>>> from a CCI dog. Another SLC TV site has a story posted and on it
>>>> is a link to the letter from CCI to Dr. Yonnet. After reading
>>>> this letter, any sympathy I had for the doctor on this issue has
>>>> disappeared. I leave it to everyone to read the letter, but it
>>>> seems from the letter that CCI did everything it could to solve
>>>> the issue at hand, and it is not just about leash and off leash
>>>> rules. Shame that Dr. Yonnet and his supporters prefer to attack
>>>> CCI than work with them to find a solution.
>>>> Recommend Recommendations: 0
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>>>
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-- 
Sharonda Greenlaw
President (Phoenix Chapter)
National Federation of the Blind
-------------
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