[nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights

Cindy Ray cindyray at gmail.com
Sun Jan 30 22:30:30 UTC 2011 

No, that is really not necessarily another direction at all. If the dog is not being abused and is in a loving home, then the dog is yours once you leave with it, or should be. There is a lot more to having a dog than whether or not you are, in someone else's view, using it properly. You become attached to that animal. To be sure, in an ideal world where black and white are the only two colors, you would have a person taking the dog home, giving it three miles a day of exercise beyond how you use it, get plenty of outings in, the whole nine yards, but the world is rarely an ideal one.

On Jan 30, 2011, at 4:13 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:

> Now you have taken this in a whole different direction.  If you have other
> health conditions, that is one thing.  If you get a dog and only use it once
> a week, that is a bigger problem no matter how old you are.  Weather is a
> fator too.
> Jordans
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of cheryl echevarria
> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:44 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
> 
> Jordan I work from home and I am also a transplant patient which GDF knows
> about, so when the weather is bad and cold like it is here in NY, I do not
> go fearing risk to my own health, but when the weather is good for me to do
> so, I go out 2 to 3 times a week, not every day, I walk him when the weather
> is good in harness to make sure he is working properly, etc.
> 
> I own my dog, so GDF shouldn't give me another dog in the future since I
> work from home which they also know, they know the weather here in NY, and I
> go out 2 possibly 3 times a week unless I am on travel. I should give my dog
> back.
> 
> Oh yes, if I am still going strong at 75 I also shouldn't have a dog.
> 
> Okay so when I am 75 I am not going to see my grandchildren, I am not going
> to Albany or Washington, DC or even like Orlando, in your eyes anyway, and I
> shouldn't have a dog.
> 
> Well I also shouldn't have gotten a kidney from my friend either, I should
> have died at 37 and not be hear listening to this nonsense.
> 
> If I am given the chance to have a guide dog, I will have one.
> 
> Since it is a legal binding contract between a school and myself when I
> signed to be able to own my dog, no one should take it away from me because
> I am not giving him the food that they don't want me to.  Or what they
> prefer.
> 
> If I am abusing my dog prove it, and if you have found that I have abused
> the dog, then you can take it away from me.
> 
> But if you are not giving reputable cause as to why you are taking my  dog
> away from me.  Then leave the dog alone.
> 
> The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services! 
> 
> Cheryl Echevarria 
> http://www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/> 
> 1-866-580-5574 or 631-456-5394
> reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
> 
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise and Travel Inc.
> The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services! 
> 
> Cheryl Echevarria 
> http://www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/> 
> 1-866-580-5574 or 631-456-5394
> reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
> 
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel CST-1018299-10
> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise and Travel Inc.
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: Jordan Gallacher<mailto:jgallacher1987 at gmail.com> 
>  To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
>  Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:32 PM
>  Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
> 
> 
>  The only time I won't take my dog is if it is a major thunderstorm,
> although
>  there are so many places on campus that are tricky with a cane, that I
>  debate about what I just said.
>  Jordan
> 
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>  Of d m gina
>  Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:27 PM
>  To: nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>  Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
> 
>  Oh send the rain our way, it is snowing.
>  I just did a bargon with my dog.
>  If he went out and did his chores he would get a treat.
>  Trust me he went quickly loll.
> 
>  Original message:
>> We  had an ice storm in Ruston and my dog worked fine even though it
>  started
>> raining ice on the way back from dinner.
>> Jordan
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>> Of d m gina
>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:14 PM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
> 
>> I disagree here,
>> I'm pleased the school I work with is quite understanding on behalf of
>> winter.
>> Gee they work in it when they can.
>> Even they had problems this year.
> 
>> Original message:
>>> Yes,. If you only use the dog once a week, you should not have the dog.
>  .
>>> Jordan
> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>  Behalf
>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:56 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
> 
>>> Jordan, you hae some pretty amazing ideas on other topics; yet you want
>> your
>>> school to have a year's right to remove your dog. First of all, how can
>  it
>>> necessarily be proved that the dog isn't being used for the original
>>> purpose. Second, what is that. I mean, what kind of flexibility is
> there
>> in
>>> that statement. Let's say I get a dog but I only go out once a week. Is
>> that
>>> mishandling of the dog? In a way, yes, or at least it is poor
> stewardship
>>> because of the cost of training one. Should that dog be removed from
> me.
>>> People hae ideas that we are mistreating our dogs all of the time. Who
> is
>>> going to prove that I am. How are you going to determine if I am a
> valid
>>> user in a year if you haven't determined that by the time I leave. If
>  word
>>> filters down that I sold the dog to a dog fighter or did something
>  equally
>>> weird, and that word got out, I should never again be allowed to have
>>> another, and I guess I think it would even be fair if that was shared
>  with
>>> other schools.
> 
>>> On Jan 30, 2011, at 2:40 PM, Jordan Gallacher wrote:
> 
>>>> No, the school needs to have a way to make sure that the dog is being
>> used
>>>> properly and have an easy way to take back the dog if need be.  You
> can
>> go
>>>> through the entire training process and get home and never use, mis
>>> handle,
>>>> etc the dog.
>>>> Jordan
> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>>>> Of Nimer Jaber
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:36 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
> 
>>>> Jordan,
> 
>>>> I find this to be ludicrous. If the school trusted you enough after
>>>> their extensive app process to get you there, to train you, to hand
>>>> over the dog to you and allow you to leave their campus, surely they
>>>> can be comfortable enough to give you ownership? What is the point of
>>>> an application if they're not giving you ownership and they're going
>>>> to make sure that you take careo f your dog for a year? Shouldn't they
>>>> just do that instead of an application process lasting months,
>>>> requiring a home interview, countless references, etc etc? Just to
>>>> clarify, I agree with the interview process, I just find that the
>>>> schools retaining ownership to be silly. This would save them costs.
>>>> This would save them the headache. And as has already been pointed
>>>> out, we aren't children. If someone can't handle their dog, there are
>>>> channels that can be followed to get that animal removed.
> 
>>>> Thanks.
> 
>>>> On 30/01/2011, Jordan Gallacher
> <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com<mailto:jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Here is how ownership should be.  The school should own the dog for
> no
>>>> more
>>>>> than the first year or until the school knows that the user is
> properly
>>>>> using the dog.
>>>>> Jordan
> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Steven Johnson
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:04 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users';
>>>> 'Blind
>>>>> Talk Mailing List'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
> 
>>>>> Peter,
> 
>>>>> This is an interesting idea.  One thing that I don't believe you
>  touched
>>>> on,
>>>>> or may have indirectly, is the issue of ownership which has been an
>>>> ongoing
>>>>> issue of discussion among the dog guide community and NAGDU for a
> very
>>>> long
>>>>> time.  This might be one way to at least bring this a little closer
> to
>>>>> creating something that addresses this.
> 
>>>>> Again, an interesting idea.  I will be eager to hear what others
> think.
> 
>>>>> Steve
> 
> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>
> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:48 PM
>>>>> To: Blind Talk Mailing List
>>>>> Cc: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights
> 
> 
>>>>> Hello everyone,
> 
>>>>>   The situation Marion posted about concerning Fidelco's removal of
>> dogs
>>>>> from graduates without detailed bonified reasons for doing so along
>  with
>>>>> other issues concerning the treatment of students in training and
>>> gradutes
>>>>> of guide dog programs is leading me to believe that perhaps the best
>  way
>>>> to
>>>>> address them is through legislation I'll refer to as a "Guide Dog
>>>> Handler's
>>>>> Bill of Rights." Such legislation would require guide dog programs
>  among
>>>>> other things to give valid reasons for the removal of someone's dog
> and
>>> an
>>>>> appeals  procedure to be put in place should a guide dog handler feel
>>>> he/she
> 
>>>>> has been wrongly accused of mistreatment of the dog. Yes it's true
>  there
>>>> are
> 
>>>>> irresponsible guide dog handlers among us just as there are
>> irresponsible
>>>>> individuals in our society. This is no reason to treat the blind like
>>>>> children.
> 
>>>>> The failure of Fidelco to give the graduate in question valid reasons
>> for
>>>>> the removal of the dog is a situation we should not tolerate and need
>  to
>>>> put
> 
>>>>> a stop to. Leader Dogs has also behaved in a similar way towards its
>>>>> graduates. If memory serves me correctly a Leader Dog Graduate's dog
>  was
>>>>> removed from them during a recent national convention. And as I
> recall
>>>> there
> 
>>>>> was insufficient reasons for the removal of that dog from its
> handler.
> 
>>>>>   A Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights could require all guide dog
>>>> programs
>>>>> to give their graduates full ownership of their dogs upon successful
>>>>> completion of their programs. I emphasize the word "Successful."
> 
>>>>>       Another issue the legislation could address is communication
>>>> between
> 
>>>>> guide dog handlers and puppy raisers. In most cases this isn't an
>  issue.
>>>>> Sadly there is at least one U.S. guide dog organization that refuzes
> to
>>>>> offer their graduates and puppy raisers the opportunity to
> communicate
>>>>> directly with each other. The Seeing Eye only permits communication
>>>> between
>>>>> the two parties through the school. It removes all contact
> information
>>>> from
>>>>> correspondence from notes passed between the two parties. Such a
>>> custodial
>>>>> practice also subjects both parties to censorship of such
>  correspondence
>>>> by
>>>>> the school. Has this organization and others that may have similar
>>>> practices
> 
>>>>> forgotten that they're dealing with adults who must learn to manage
>> their
>>>>> life's affairs including how communication between themselves and
> their
>>>>> dog's puppy raiser will occur if it does at all. This decision should
>>> rest
>>>>> with the parties in question and not the dictates of a guide dog
>  program
>>>>> that thinks it is doing the right thing when in reallity it is doing
>> more
>>>>> harm than good.
> 
>>>>>   A guide dog handler's Bill of Rights would require guide dog
>  programs
>>>> to
> 
>>>>> establish procedures for facilitating direct communication between
> its
>>>>> graduates and puppy raisers and would prohibit the removal of contact
>>>>> information it may pass between them.
> 
>>>>>   A number of Seeing Eye graduates have discussed this matter with
> the
>>>>> school only to receive one excuse after another. And oh yes. As was
>  told
>>>> to
>>>>> Marion by Fidelco concerning the graduate who's dog was wrongly
> removed
>>>> the
>>>>> same old fashion voodoo about confidentiality and privacy are touted
>>>>> concerning direct communication between puppy handlers and guide dog
>>>> school
>>>>> graduates. Programs like the Seeing Eye and others with similar
>> practices
>>>>> would do well to enter the new Milennium on this matter or face the
>>>>> possibility of a legislative mandate to do so. Guide dog handlers
> have
>  a
>>>>> right to learn about their dog's up-bringing. Who best to provide
> that
>>>>> information than the dog's puppy raiser.
> 
>>>>>   One Seeing Eye Instructor told me that when one adopts a child
>> contact
>>>>> information for the child's former parents is withheld. The same
> should
>>> be
>>>>> done in the case of guide dog puppy raisers and SE'S graduates. I
>>> wouldn't
>>>>> be pressed to want such information from an adoption agency in the
>  first
>>>>> place. As the child becomes a part of the family and begins to share
>>>> his/her
> 
>>>>> background I'd have a way to get the information I need to be a more
>>>>> effective parent. A dog is unable to communicate such information to
>  its
>>>>> owner. I have had guide dogs from several guide dog schools and had
> no
>>>>> issues with communication between myself and the dog's raiser. I have
>>> very
>>>>> specific requirements any future guide dog program would need to me
> if
>>> I'm
>>>>> to seek training from them. Because all guide dog programs have one
>  less
>>>>> then desireable practice or another switching schools to address the
>>> puppy
>>>>> raiser communication issue is not an option. No self-respecting blind
>>>>> individual should be put in such a predicament. Let's make sure
>> graduates
>>>> of
> 
>>>>> all guide dog programs have the opportunity to communicate directly
>  with
>>>>> their dog's puppy family if they choose to do so.
> 
>>>>>   These are just two issues a "Guide Dog Handler Bill of Rights"
> could
>>>>> address. I'm sure folks on these lists can think of more. It's an
> idea
>>>> worth
> 
>>>>> considering to help put an end to practices many of us find demeaning
>> and
>>>>> offensive. Thanks for reading.
> 
>>>>> Peter Donahue
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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