[nagdu] a blindconsumer'sRight toChooserehabtraining(federalregs)

Sat Nov 12 21:14:30 UTC 2011

hey tami.
wow that was great.
I feel the same way.
I don't use the blindness servies.
here in calfornia.
they felt like i wouldn't ammount to anything.
but i'm better off on my own.
it's less stress on me.  and mya.
they felt like mya wasn't a good dog.
but i know she's great.
she's given me more freedom.
and made me feel better about traveling.

i beleave that i can do anything that any body.
elce is able to do.
i just use my skills.
that i learned from school.
well.  chat soon.

> ----- Original Message -----
>From: Tami Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net
>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:43:39 -0800
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blindconsumer'sRight	
toChooserehabtrainin
g(federalregs)

>RJ,

>Over the past nearly 13 years, it has become very apparent to me 
that in
>Oregon, the VR system is not much governed by the decisions and 
quirks
>of individual counselors, but definitely comes from the top down 
and is
>a matter of established practice.  The quote from Dr.  Jernigan 
holds very
>true here, and has been so self-reinforcing by now for so many 
decades,
>that the resulting blind culture has become hardened almost 
beyond any
>ability to communicate nonconforming thoughts and ideas.  Or to 
get
>answers to questions that do not come straight from the agency 
word and
>tone perfect.  I have observed this over and over throughout the 
blind
>culture, not just in any one section of it.  Nonconformity to 
that
>underlying culture is not for the faint of heart.

>I figured out years ago that the application of informed choice 
here is
>what you describe having experienced in Florida.  We will inform 
you of
>your choices.  You will act on the choices we make for you.

>The response to even basic questions is, well, informative if not 
in the
>way one would hope.  Thirteen years of trying to find a way 
around that
>barrier has gotten me a whole lot of frustration.  Sigh.

>For myself, I've decided that I am so much better off without 
having to
>deal with the agency that I've just put my time and energy into
>recovering from not having caught on soon enough.  My resulting 
financial
>and health situation have made that a long, grueling and slow 
process,
>but with every plateau I reach, my speed of progress picks up a 
little
>more.  It's exhausting, but I'm getting there...  In more and 
more areas
>of life, actually, which stuns me when I take time out to notice 
that.

>So now when people ask me about VR, what do I tell them? Not a 
clue.
>Except to give them information and ideas to counteract the 
attitudes
>towards blindness that come from the agency and are now a 
foundation
>stone of the world view of the blind culture.  When I am talking 
to
>another blind person I've only just met in whatever venue, about 
any
>subject at all, I can pretty much rest assured that I will hear, 
Well,
>The Blind cant..." Or, "well you know how the Blind are..." and 
so on.
>Finding a nonconfrontational yet effective means to communicate 
past
>that sort of thing has not been easy.  I've sort of settled on an
>approach I can live with that does appear to bring a glimmer of 
new
>thought to the person who just told me that the Blind can't do 
most of
>what I do or that The Blind just do something I would never do 
because
>of how The Blind are that I am not...  Sigh.  Much practice of 
Zen for me
>and deep calming breaths before speaking.

>The Blind can't really learn braille, you know, it's just too 
hard for
>them so they don't try.

>Well, you have to understand that The Blind just want people to 
give
>them free things so that's why the agency doesn't want you to 
find out
>enough about braille displays for your employer to purchase one 
for you
>so you can keep working.

>You can't expect the agency to provide you with a braille display 
or
>help you get braille textbooks for college because The Blind 
can't
>really learn anyway.  You can just go to class, since nobody is 
going to
>expect anything more from you.

>  The agency needs to make sure that The Blind aren't taking 
scarce
>resources from blind people who need them.

>We don't talk about it; we don't want to cause trouble for the 
agency
>because they're under attack from the state auditors and the Ways 
and
>Means committee.

>The agency doesn't have to provide VR services, you know, if they 
don't
>want to.  SO you just have to cooperate with them and be patient 
with
>them or else they will not provide services to you.  Just do 
everything
>they tell you to do and maybe you can convince them that you are 
worth
>giving a little training to.  Or maybe they will help you buy a 
talking
>watch or something like that.

>Well, you shouldn't try to ...  The Blind can't really do that, 
so you
>need to find something to do for a little bit of money that you 
actually
>can do.  That way you can feel better about yourself and you 
might have a
>little extra spending money to go to lunch witha friend or 
something
>nice like that.  You can maybe make some nice friends at work, so 
that
>will help you with  The Depression from   The Loneliness and The 
Isolation.

>Listen to your counselor who knows what you can do and what you 
should do.

>Always cross the street at an audible signal, because that way 
you know
>it's safe to go.  My instructor told me to just listen for the 
tone to
>change then step out across the street as quickly as I can so I 
can get
>to the other side before the signal changes.  That's what you 
should do.

>As I said, much practice of Zen and deep calming breaths on my 
part.
>That's not actually all of the repeated phrases all in the same 
tone I
>hear all the time from other blind people.  Since I also got to 
hear them
>first from the agency...

>Now I'm reading some of them again in quotes in newspaper 
articles about
>the latest audit and the pressure from the Secrtary of State on 
the
>Board to get things sgraightened up.  If everyone would stop 
pointing
>fingers and whining like children...  Oh, I love that one, too.  
I first
>heard that years ago when I expressed some frustration with the 
income I
>was losing and the extra medical bills I hadn't been expecting 
and how
>much more income I needed from working if only I could get the 
toolsto
>do the reading.

>Yes, indeed, the first thing I needed to do about that was to 
stop
>pointing fingers and whining.  ZZen.  It's all about the Zen.  
Urgh!

>Oh, just to tie this in to keep it not completely off topic: Your 
O&M
>instructor can teach you how to get a guide dog and will tell you 
what
>you need to know about how to take care of it.  Maybe then if you 
talk to
>the guide dog school, they will let you have a dog...

>Drumroll, please!

>Tami

>On 11/11/2011 04:18 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote:
>> See that's how it is here in Florida.  The councilor's dictate 
instead of
>> allowing you to make an informed choice.  Why is their a 74 
percent
>> unemployment rate among the blind? because all the working aged 
blind
>> are working in a vending stand because councilor knows best! The 
NFB has
>> been around for almost 75 or more years, but when you really get 
down to
>> it, what have the blind really accomplished? Not much of 
anything.
>> Jerigan said its a cycle The agencies for the blind give bad 
teaching
>> skills, which leads to wrong misconceptions of the blind person 
to the
>> general public.  We have three blindness training centers, but 
these are
>> not schools.  Alot of times, kids are sent to a blindness 
school, from
>> the time they're five years old, until they graduate, and then 
when they
>> get out into the world, they don't know how to adjust.  So, what 
should
>> we the blind do? Get them when they're young, so that when they 
graduate
>> from high school, they won't need to go to the NFB center, 
because they
>> already have the training.  RJ
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" 
<bjnite at windstream.net
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blind consumer'sRight
>> toChooserehabtraining(federalregs)

>>> Hey Tami

>>> that is what happens in my state.  Once they had a Consumer 
Advisory
>>> Counsel that said some true, uncomplimentary stuff about the
>>> counselors.  The counselors were insulted because the counselors 
had
>>> Masters degrees and who were these ungrateful consumers.  I read 
the
>>> minutes and heard the counselors angry comments because I worked 
for
>>> the Agency.

>>> Then as a consumer after I was forced out of the agency due to 
an
>>> office move, I had a whole slew of problems getting what I knew 
I
>>> needed.  I found out a rehab tech had told the counselor the 
exact
>>> opposite about what he and I discussed.  I protested and had my 
case
>>> closed in frustration.

>>> Instead of learning our rights etc., I would just like to know 
the
>>> States where rehab professionals really help the most consumers 
and
>>> work with them as a team instead of dictating what the client 
needs
>>> and giving anyone who asks for choices etc.  a hard time.

>>> When I had my issues, I didn't know of anyone to help me.  Even 
if I
>>> did, it is an exhausting process and i want to enjoy life and 
not
>>> spend all my time fighting with people.  If I had things to do 
over,
>>> and had access to the internet, I would have moved to the State 
where
>>> the rehab people are known to be more helpful.
>>> Brenda

>>> On 11/11/2011 6:22 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>> So what do you do, then, when you do your homework before you 
make
>>>> your first call and know what your needs are and formulate your
>>>> requests according to that in line with what the law and the 
policies
>>>> and procedures are and..And get nowhere.  For years.

>>>> What if you keep hearing that this is what happens to virtually
>>>> everyone you talk to.

>>>> What if you learn that there is no recorse, that the agency is 
not
>>>> following the laws or the rules and regs because they don't 
actually
>>>> have to? Because there is no one to make them?

>>>> Then where are you?And where are all your friends and 
acquaintances
>>>> and what do you tell them when they ask you what do do?

>>>> Tami.

>>>> On 11/11/2011 12:40 PM, Larry D.  Keeler wrote:
>>>>> You don't march in, you ease in and tell your counsellor what 
you'd
>>>>> like
>>>>> to do and ask them how it can be accomplished.
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJ Sandefur"
>>>>> <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:49 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blind consumer's Right
>>>>> toChooserehabtraining(federalregs)

>>>>>> How is a blind consumer suposed to just march into their 
councilors
>>>>>> office, and tell him or her I want this or that? The councilor's 
know
>>>>>> these regulations back and forwards...  They have excuses for
>>>>>> everything.  Really this should be for the rehab councilor list.  
RJ
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Criminal Justice Major
>>>>>> Extraordinaire" <orleans24 at comcast.net
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 2:39 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a blind consumer's Right to
>>>>>> Chooserehabtraining(federalregs)

>>>>>>> Hi, larry,
>>>>>>> I'll agree with you on this one and leave it alone too.
>>>>>>> Since I don't know that much about those individuals, will leave 
it
>>>>>>> as that.
>>>>>>> *Smiles*
>>>>>>> Bibi and Odie
>>>>>>> the happy spirited bounty labra wolf

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defur%40gmail.com

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ast.net

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