[nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination

Mon Apr 2 10:49:24 UTC 2012

Rebecca,
    With all due respect, such a some-all fallacy is fundamentally 
incorrect. Everyone does not know that a state-issued photo identification 
is as valid as a driver's license. We have had many cases in which an 
individual was denied the right to purchase or rent items because the 
company policy stated they must present a valid driver's license. In any 
case, the point of my example is that discrimination of any type, including 
the presentation of documentation that a service animal is legitimate, is 
best resisted. If we allow it to happen once, we allow it to happen often.

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination


> Everybody knows a state issued id is legal.  The cashier can say whatever 
> they want, the manager wouldn't.  State issued id's are quite common. 
> Guide dogs really aren't.
> My other solution would be to tell the cashier that I offered to pay, had 
> the means to pay and if wasn't going to be accepted, then my items are a 
> gift.
>
> I had something like this happen at a fast food place when the cashier 
> claimed she couldn't give me change. I told her that was fine, she could 
> make me a gift of the food.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf 
> Of Marion Gwizdala
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 7:57 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] Discrimination is Still Discrimination
>
> Rebecca,
>    First of all, let me state categorically, that the requirement to
> produce documentation as a precondition to access is not "NFB guidance";
> rather, it is the guidance of the United States Department of Justice. 
> Let's
> say that you are done with your shopping and you are paying for your 
> diapers
> and formula with your credit card. The cashier asks you for identification
> to ensure that you are truly the cardholder. You present your state issued
> photo identification and the cashier says it is not acceptable because the
> company's policy clearly states that you must present a driver's license.
> This, too, is a violation of the ADA. Where do you stop accepting
> discriminatory behavior and stand up for your civil rights?
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>
>
>>I understand what everybody is saying. And, I agree with it.
>> Here is my question.  I go to Costco because I need or want something.
>> Let's assume it's a need. One of the things Costco sells is diapers and
>> formula. They sell them cheaply and of course they sell in bulk.  So,
>> let's say I need diapers and formula (and believe me that stuff is
>> expensive at say Giant or Safeway).  I go to Costco and somebody wants me
>> to show ID.  I normally need to have someone drive me to Costco, partly
>> because it isn't walkable, and partly because once I buy what I need, I
>> have to haul all that stuff home.  So, I've gone to a bit of trouble and
>> usually expense to make this trip happen which is fine, but does mean 
>> that
>> I really do intend to walk out with my intended purchases.  So, the store
>> asks for ID, and I call the police. If they decide they don't care (I did
>> have this happen once) what exactly will my NFB state president do? Fine
>> that he or she can resolve the issue in time, but I'm here now, I need to
>> buy what I need to buy, and ona higher level, while I
>> care about the next person, I also need to think of myself.
>>
>> Using my example, why should I follow NFB's guidelines when the only
>> bennifit is the greater good?
>> Why do I need to be a test case for this?
>>
>> Why isn't NFB making what Costco is doing a criminal offense, or pushing
>> so that if somebody does ask for ID, they risk loosing their job.
>>
>> Not everybody can or wants to be a precident setter.  For me, this is 
>> more
>> practical then emotional, we only have one Costco, it's close to my 
>> house,
>> and I shop there because they have stuff I need and or want at prices I
>> like. Suggesting that I can just shop elsewhere while this gets resolved
>> isn't practical
>>
>> Telling me what I should do when you (and I don't mean the below poster)
>> won't be there to assist on a practical and real time level does me no
>> good at all.
>> I could argue that NFB has the resources both legally and person-wise to
>> fix this issue without the expectation that I should screw up both my
>> short term and long-term plans as well as my pocketbook.
>>
>> Anybody else have the same issue with NFB's direction?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of cheryl echevarria
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:27 AM
>> To: nagdu
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>
>>
>> I am in agreement with what President Gwizdala has said, being in
>> situations recently where the places such as costco has asked for paper
>> work or id card was just wrong, but the fact that people in the area are
>> doing it, whether they are bullied into it or not shouldn't make a
>> difference.
>> You need to think of the next person that comes after you, you are 
>> setting
>> the example, be correct, be polite, but most of all, know what you are
>> talking about, if the stores are doing the or location, just call the
>> police, if that doesn't work, call one of us either your state president
>> of your local chapter of NAGDU, or President Gwizdala.
>> Cheryl Echevarria, PresidentTravel and TourismNational Federation of the
>> Blind
>>
>> Leading the Way in Independent Travel!
>>
>> Cheryl Echevarria
>> http://www.echevarriatravel.com
>> 631-456-5394
>> reservations at echevarriatravel.com
>>
>> For daily updates read our blog at
>> http://www.echevarriatravel.wordpress.com
>>
>>> From: blind411 at verizon.net
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:09:15 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>
>>> Natalie,
>>>     NAGDU is working diligently to provide accurate information about 
>>> the
>>> rights and responsibilities of service dog users and the accommodations
>>> we
>>> patronize. For now, I think the "best answer" is to encourage all 
>>> service
>>> dog users to follow the same protocol so as to not create confusion. I 
>>> am
>>> of
>>> the opinion that, since the presence of a service dog is irrelevant to
>>> access and the services provided, service dogs are best served by not
>>> giving
>>> advance notice nor producing documentation of training. Such a practice
>>> sends the message that this is the norm and should be expected. I have
>>> had
>>> hotels, restaurants, and other places of public accommodations tell me
>>> that
>>> someone else called in advance and/or produced identification, why not
>>> me?
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Natalie" <nrorrell at qwest.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:48 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>>
>>>
>>> >I know what you're saying, Marion.  I wish I had an easy answer for
>>> >this.
>>> >I think the best thing to do is to push for more training of these
>>> >companies. Of course, people should not have to tell if they are gay,
>>> >black, Muslim, whatever.  I wish I had an easy answer.
>>> > Best,
>>> > Nat and Liam Joshua
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>> > To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 5:54 AM
>>> > Subject: [nagdu] Advance Notification
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> Natalie,
>>> >>    In this message, you say that you tell them you will be 
>>> >> accompanied
>>> >> by
>>> >> a guide dog because you don't want any surprises. What I think is the
>>> >> biggest surprise is that taxi companies do not adequately train their
>>> >> employees on the civil rights provisions of the ADA. Just as it is
>>> >> illegal to discriminate against us by reason of our disability, it is
>>> >> another's civil right to not be discriminated against because of 
>>> >> other
>>> >> characteristics. Should someone call a taxi company and tell them 
>>> >> they
>>> >> are African American, Muslim, or gay? Why or why not? What if someone
>>> >> contends they are afraid of black people or that their religion
>>> >> forbids
>>> >> them from being in the presence of homosexuals? Should they be 
>>> >> allowed
>>> >> to
>>> >> refuse service to them based upon these irrational concerns or should
>>> >> they be required to abide by the law?
>>> >>
>>> >> Fraternally yours,
>>> >> Marion Gwizdala
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >> From: "Natalie" <nrorrell at qwest.net>
>>> >> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 7:22 PM
>>> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Taxi Refusal
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> Hi Cindy, et al,
>>> >>> I've had it go both ways.  Usually, I do tell them I have the dog
>>> >>> when I
>>> >>> make my call, because, like Nicole, I'd prefer there to be no
>>> >>> surprises.
>>> >>> However, I've had delays and minor challenges happen whether I
>>> >>> prewarn
>>> >>> of the dog or not.  Just depends on the time of day, who's on staff,
>>> >>> and
>>> >>> probably God knows what else.
>>> >>> Best,
>>> >>> Nat and Liam Joshua
>>> >>>
>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >>> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
>>> >>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 6:49 PM
>>> >>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Taxi Refusal
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>I don't understand why you do this when you have the lawful right to
>>> >>>>take the dog with you, and I think I did explain, or tried to. I
>>> >>>>don't
>>> >>>>mean for you to need to be so defensive about it. I mean, at this
>>> >>>>point,
>>> >>>>I expect that the fact I have my dog with me is likely in the cab
>>> >>>>company's computer, too, because I've taken him. I actually hadn't
>>> >>>>thought of that angle before. I won't be asking though because it
>>> >>>>might
>>> >>>>give them ideas that they wouldn't have had otherwise. Here, of
>>> >>>>course,
>>> >>>>we are small enough and we ride enough that they would know that the
>>> >>>>dog
>>> >>>>is with me. Probably they would with you as well. But when you tell
>>> >>>>them
>>> >>>>you have a dog, then it lets cab drivers opt out of driving you.
>>> >>>>That's
>>> >>>>all I was saying about it.
>>> >>>> Cindy
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>
>>> >>>
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>>> >>
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>>
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>
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