[nagdu] My Apologies!

Cindy Ray cindyray at gmail.com
Thu Aug 9 21:25:51 UTC 2012 

In that case, you might want to ceck out the spelling of e s t e e m e d. Otherwise, he might get back at ya.
cl

On Aug 9, 2012, at 4:13 PM, Larry D. Keeler wrote:

> you're here by replying though!
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Apologies!
> 
> 
>> I'm sure glad I'm not participating in this thread.
>> 
>> CL
>> 
>> On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Michael Hingson wrote:
>> 
>>> Marsha,
>>> 
>>> Are you sure he is not losing it?  Let's see if he remembers to respond to
>>> this thread.
>>> 
>>> He has been confused about using the term "all y'all" in a sentence.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Marsha Drenth
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 12:40 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Apologies!
>>> 
>>> Ah! So this is what happens to Marion as he gets older and older. LOL I just
>>> kidding. Marion your not old, nor losing it because of your age.
>>> 
>>> *runs and hides*
>>> Marsha drenthSent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Aug 9, 2012, at 3:20 PM, "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Ah Marion,
>>>> 
>>>> Is this what happens just after a birthday?  (grin)
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:10 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] My Apologies!
>>>> 
>>>>      My message did not come out the way I meant it to read! What a
>>>> difference a word makes! I meant to write, "I have never met an
>>>> owner-trained dog that was *not* as well controlled as a program dog!"
>>>> The way I originally wrote this message was cumbersome, so i editted
>>>> it and really screwed up the meaning. In these days of political
>>>> attack ads, I sure hope my words don't get disseminated far and wide,
>>>> giving the impression I look upon owner-traners poorly. Those who
>>>> really know my view on this issue will attest to the fact that I am
>>>> fully supportive of owner-trainers! Sorry 'bout that, Chief!
>>>> 
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Pawpower Creations" <pawpower at cox.net>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 8:56 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Marion, I have never met a program trained dog that was as well
>>>>> trained and well controlled as either mine or Rox'E'S owner trained
>>>>> dogs.  In fact most of the owner trainers that we know have had
>>>>> awesomely well behaved dogs and I would stack them up against any
>>>>> program trained dog any day of the week.
>>>>> 
>>>>> That is not to say that program trained dogs are not well controlled
>>>>> or well trained, it is just that I haven't met any, or I should say I
>>>>> have met very few which I could call well controlled.  I just don't
>>>>> think it is fair to lump all owner trained dogs in to a group simply
>>>>> because the experiences you have had with them have been less than
>>>>> stellar.
>>>>> JMHO
>>>>> 
>>>>> Woofs and wags from the pawpower pack,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Queen Bristol, Mill'E to the max, Rudy the dude in spirit,  baby girl
>>>>> Laveau and Bayou Baylee.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pawpower Creations,  Products designed with you and your canine in mind.
>>>>> Bob Blackner/Rox'e Homstad,
>>>>> 504-312-2609
>>>>> pawpower at cox.net
>>>>> www.pawpowercreations.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> And be sure and visit bayou Baylee's blog at:
>>>>> www.pawpowercreations.com/wordpress
>>>>> See you there.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I asked for strength that I might rear her perfectly; I was given
>>>>> weakness that I might feed her more treats.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I asked for good health that I might rest easy; I was given a
>>>>> "special needs" dog that I might know nurturing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I asked for an obedient dog that I might feel proud; I was given
>>>>> stubbornness that I might feel humble.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I asked for compliance that I might feel masterful; I was given a
>>>>> clown that I might laugh.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I asked for a companion that I might not feel lonely; I was given a
>>>>> best friend that I would feel loved.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I got nothing I asked for,
>>>>> But everything that I needed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Author unknown
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 6:28 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Vanessa,
>>>>> I'm not sure if I agree with your message completely. I have never
>>>>> met an owner-trained guide dog that was as well controlled as a program
>>> dog.
>>>>> NAGDU and the National Association of Blind veterans will work with
>>>>> our General Counsel to create a better policy for the VA.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Vanessa Lowery" <vlowery at dhr.state.md.us>
>>>>> To: "the National Association of Guide Dog Users' 'NAGDU Mailing List"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:40 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> OK, that was a history lesson, for sure.  Thanks, jenine.  This also
>>>>>> tells
>>>>> 
>>>>>> me that GdUI's leadership is aware of the same issue.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But this also speaks to the concerns that we all have about service
>>>>>> dogs, be they program-trained or owner-trained.  The issue being
>>>>>> control of the dog.  Sounds like some of the owner-trained dogs,
>>>>>> though they may perform tasks, are not under good control, and that
>>>>>> is what brought about this ruling.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Vanessa Lowery, LGSW
>>>>>> Adult and Community Services Division Adult Services Screening Unit
>>>>>> 410-853-3550
>>>>>> VLowery at dhr.state.md.us
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com> 8/8/2012 3:27 PM >>>
>>>>>> Buddy,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Let me try to explain this access issue. We have been dealing with
>>>>>> this at GDF and our service dog organization, America's Vetdogs, for
>>>>>> the past several years.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The first thing to know about any Veterans Administration facility
>>>>>> is that there is no overall governing structure that covers every
>>>>>> aspect of its operation. Each facility director is allowed, under
>>>>>> federal directive, to establish policies and procedures according to
>>>>>> the needs, within certain parameters of course, of that facility.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Veterans and staff alike have a saying: "If you've been to one VA
>>>>>> facility, you've been to one VA facility."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Although the Secretary in DC has given some general guidance, it is
>>>>>> only that and each facility may establish its own rules for access.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Remember, Veterans Administration facilities are federal and do not
>>>>>> fall under the ADA. They fall under the Rehabilitation Act and even
>>>>>> more specifically, under these guidelines established by the
>>>>>> Secretary of Veterans Affairs.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As the popularity of service dogs to assist with many disabling
>>>>>> conditions has risen, a number of people have owner trained pets or
>>>>>> acquired dogs not suitable for the work. These people know that
>>>>>> their dogs are covered under the ADA and truly do believe that this
>>>>>> coverage extends to the VA system.
>>>>>> Just as with the general public, when any dog designated as a
>>>>>> service animal does not behave properly, disrupts activities or
>>>>>> poses a danger to people, it can be removed from the facility. This
>>>>>> is true with the VA as well, but as with the general public, the VA
>>>>>> has chosen to use a wide ranging punishment for a very specific
>>>>>> issue. We receive calls at least once a week from VA facilities
>>>>>> asking how to ban dogs who attack staff and other service dogs.
>>>>>> According to the VA staff calling, most of these dogs are owner or
>>>>>> privately trained. Some, however, as we point out, are indeed
>>>>>> trained by accredited facilities. We advise the VA staff to first
>>>>>> work with the individual to alert him/her that the dog's behavior is
>>>>>> not appropriate and if it continues with no attempt to correct it,
>>>>>> the dog can be banned from the facility. We also refer them to their
>>>>>> facility's policy on service animal access, which may or may not
>>>>>> state this.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Unfortunately, many veterans are also using service dogs as
>>>>>> protection devices for personal safety which is not at all a
>>>>>> function of the work service dogs are generally expected to do and
>>>>>> is not allowed under the ADA or other access laws.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In order to establish some kind of order in who is bringing dogs
>>>>>> into VA facilities, many facilities have decided to adopt the
>>>>>> standard that any service animal entering the facility must have
>>>>>> been trained by an organization with either Assistance Dogs
>>>>>> International (ADI) or International Guide Dog Federation (IGDF)
>>>>>> credentials. Handlers who cannot show ID with the logos of either of
>>>>>> these organizations and an associated training provider will not be
>>>>>> allowed to take their service or guide dogs into the VA facility.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You're probably thinking that people can just get these logos on
>>>>>> line and make up ID cards. They could but ADI and IGDF are extremely
>>>>>> strict about who and where their logos may be used and will seek
>>>>>> whatever legal remedies appropriate when they discover misuse of
>>>>>> their logos. If you have a guide dog school ID and your school is
>>>>>> accredited by IGDF, chances are it bares that logo.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This VA access standard generally has not touched the guide dog
>>>>>> handlers much in the past but increasingly, the rule is being
>>>>>> enforced more strictly so that guide dogs, once held separately by
>>>>>> the VA in general in terms of access and provision of benefits, are
>>>>>> now being included in a general service animal category and more
>>>>>> closely scrutinized.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is truly one of those pendulum swings in access rights that
>>>>>> happens when things get too out of control for an entity. We saw
>>>>>> this in the July
>>>>>> 2010 revision of the ADA's service animal definition and standards.
>>>>>> The VA is following that general line with these regulations.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I will not go into whether I think this is right or wrong as that is
>>>>>> a whole other topic, but just to let you know, it is out there and
>>>>>> it does affect many people seeking services from the VA.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There are efforts in Congress already to change this guidance but
>>>>>> some of those efforts are based on incorrect information and
>>> assumptions.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What can NAGDU do about this situation? One thing you can do that
>>>>>> would be very helpful for those of us in organizations that work
>>>>>> directly with the VA for our handlers is to ask your handlers who
>>>>>> are using VA facilities, either as veterans or dependants, whether
>>>>>> or not their access with their dogs has been questioned, challenged
>>>>>> or denied within the past year. If so, please let me know privately.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As I said, each VA facility is its own entity regarding how strictly
>>>>>> the guidelines for service animals are enforced. Some facilities
>>>>>> allow pets and therapy animals without question while others are
>>>>>> extremely strict about showing ID for the service animal each time
>>>>>> the person comes to the facility. It all depends on the experiences
>>>>>> and attitude of the facility director and staff.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jenine Stanley
>>>>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>>>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:07 PM
>>>>>> To: the National Association of Guide Dog Users NAGDU Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Guide Dogs And VA Facilities--what?!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Someone just brought the following to my attention. What does this
>>>>>> mean for owner/trained guide and service dogs? Moreover, what does
>>>>>> this mean for the future of what constitutes a service dog?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> http://thomas.loc.gov/home/gpoxmlc112/h1627_enr.xml#toc-H547AD04B80A24
>>>> ADCBB0
>>>>>> 2C96CBF22D067
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> SEC. 109. USE OF SERVICE DOGS ON PROPERTY OF THE DEPARTMENT OF
>>>>>> VETERANS AFFAIRS.
>>>>>> Section 901 is amended by adding at the end the following new
>>> subsection:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "(f)(1) The Secretary may not prohibit the use of a covered service
>>>>>> dog in any facility or on any property of the Department or in any
>>>>>> facility or on any property that receives funding from the
>>>>>> Secretary.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "(2) For purposes of this subsection, a covered service dog is a
>>>>>> service dog that has been trained by an entity that is accredited by
>>>>>> an appropriate accrediting body that evaluates and accredits
>>>>>> organizations which train guide or service dogs.".
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/vlowery%40dhr.state
>>>> .md.us
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>> ------
>>>>> ----
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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