[nagdu] Introduction and Questions
Mark J. Cadigan
kramc11 at gmail.com
Wed Feb 1 18:07:27 UTC 2012
In that situation, I tell people to simply pretend that I have no vision. If
my vision is temporarily working, and I can use it, cool, if not if people
pretend that I have no vision to begin with, there is no confusion.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
> Yes, Julie, this is it exactly. And your examples would be useful to me.
> The veague "I can't see right now but in five minutes it might be better"
> would have me thinking
> How much can you see right now? How does the amount impact me? What will
> happen in five minutes that this might be better? How do you know this?
> Is there anything I can do to make it better, since better is a value
> judgment, and you've communicated by that phrase you're not happy with the
> current conditions? After all nobody says "I have a cold, I sure hope it
> gets worse" Is there something you can't do right now that you'd like me
> to do or be aware of? How will five minutes change your capabilities?
>
> That's what goes through my mind when someone brings up limited vision.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J.
> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 12:19 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>
> Rebeka,
>
> I think I'm understanding what you are getting at. More than the level
> of vision a person has or what they can do with it, it is how the
> person communicates their needs and abilities that is problematic for
> you. Is this right?
>
> So if I say that I am extremely light sensitive and won't be able to use
> my vision at all when it is a clear sunny day, that would be more
> helpful than saying I can't see right now, but in 5 minutes it might be
> better. By explaining what the underlying issue is, I am making it
> possible for you to predict what I might be able to do visually in a
> given situation.
>
> I'm also getting your frustration with the view some people have with
> level of vision as a predictor of competence. Like in your example of
> seeing or hearing the car approaching at the street crossing. The
> underlying assumption by the other person was that vision was more
> useful or better or whatever than other skills like listening.
>
> I don't have any grand insights, but it's a good discussion.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2/1/2012 10:52 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>> It's not that I don't believe someone, it's that the terms they use don't
>> make sense.
>> Add to that the flexible nature and a dash of attitude and you'd be
>> frustrated too.
>> It's like if you and I lived together and it was my duty to do the
>> dishes. Not doing the dishes isn't an option for health and cleanliness
>> reasons. When we start this arangement I tell you that "I can do the
>> dishes, but I can only do them really well some of the time. Other
>> times, I'll sort of do them, and then there are times whenI will just not
>> do them at all. I won't tell you when these times will happen, that's up
>> to you to know. I won't ask you politely to do the dishes when I can't,
>> I just will leave them undone or partially done.
>>
>> The state of the dishes will impact the meal you make and you won't know
>> in advance what state the dishes will be in. So you'd better hope I'm not
>> having a day where I'm unable to wash the crock pot when you need it to
>> make chili.
>>
>> Add to that that I convey to you that I kick ass when I do the dishes. I
>> do them better then you ever thought about it. Never mind that some days
>> I really need you to do the dishes, the days I don't, just stay the heck
>> out of the kitchen until I'm done because you will only screw things up.
>>
>> It has nothing to do with what I believe. It is how I'm impacted and how
>> my understanding or lack thereof impacts the interaction.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Doug Parisian
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 11:17 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>
>> I really don't know how to ask these questions in a touchy-feely manner
>> but
>> here it is! What is so wrong about believing someone when they tell you
>> about their visual situation? Why do so many folks assume they are lying
>> about their needs? And, if you're really brave, and have reasonable
>> communication skills, what is wrong with asking the person themselves?
>>
>> Sorry folks but this unfortunate nonsense burns me up at above middle sun
>> temperature, and damn, I've been totally blind for 64 years. Next time
>> you
>> go to a doctor with an ailment such as a serious cut, break, infection,
>> those jealous doubting Thomas folks should be sure that chosen doctor
>> suffer
>> from the same ailment. According to the logic expressed in this thread,
>> that would seem an appropriate choice. Maybe some total blinks are
>> simply
>> jealous, blaming, and/or resentful.
>>
>> And now, lightening up a little, an acquaintance and I decided to take a
>> two
>> hour sailing tour on the golf of Florida; we both had dogs and he
>> explained
>> about his weird fluctuating vision, affected by damn near everything.
>> One
>> of the crew was a wonderful courteous young woman of mid twenties. As
>> she
>> walked around the gunwales of the boat to make adjustments, my buddy
>> commented on her amazing legs. When I asked about the rest of her, he
>> indicated he'd have either to wait for vision to improve/adjust, or for
>> her
>> to get back on deck, a spot 3 feet lower than where she was located.
>>
>> Sometimes life just ain't fair!
>>
>> Doug; If I offend anyone, please tell your friends!
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"<REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 7:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>
>>
>>> I have no vision. Nobody has ever explained to me the
>>> differences
>>> in visual acuity and what that may mean until this discussion.
>>> For example, until I read Brenda's post, I had no clue that telling the
>>> difference between grass and pavement was harder, because when you do it
>>> with acane, it's a piece of cake.
>>>
>>> I understand from reading these posts how lighting can affect vision.
>>> I don't understand the stress or the "my vision changes from day-to-day"
>>> comments.
>>> I simply haven't had them explained in a manner that makes sense to me.
>>>
>>> I've encountered people with partial vision in my guide dog classes who
>>> can see a dime, in the next town, in the next county, and nobody ever
>>> explained that they may not see a bus right in front of them. So I'm
>>> left
>>> with a WTF?? Reaction.
>>>
>>> Add to that the fuzzy language of "My vision changes from day to day"
>>> and
>>> I'm totally confused.
>>>
>>> Nobody has explained what the visual acuity numbers mean either. So
>>> hearing those numbers without the tie-in to something tangible is Greek
>>> to
>>> me.
>>>
>>> It would be useful to me when I encounter someone with partial vision
>>> for
>>> them to tell me what they need/want me to do, not what they can or can't
>>> see, how that changes. It's interesting to know, and I would like to
>>> know
>>> it, but practically speaking it means more to me if you say "I can't see
>>> the appropriate place to sit, can you take me to it"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Brenda
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 7:31 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>
>>> Well said Tami and marion.
>>>
>>> In addition, not only people with RP have trouble seeing. I have never
>>> had depth perception and in fact have fallen down stairs. No one even
>>> thought I needed a cane and I continued to survive in the sighted world
>>> as a second class citizen.
>>>
>>> When I finally took the step to get some mobility training, the
>>> instructor told me 'you have more vision than you realize' because I
>>> could walk in a straight line. It was in the winter so I could tell the
>>> difference between snow and pavement. Now grass and pavement is a
>>> little harder. I can see the confusion of a person with a drivers
>>> licence using a guide dog, but perhaps there is more to it than that
>>> and/or maybe they shouldn't even have had a license.
>>>
>>> It is very depressing that people with partial sight are slapped down by
>>> people with less visual acuity. Sometimes it is even people who have
>>> been in my shoes who devalidate me and my needs. Maybe I can see well
>>> one day and not another. Maybe Ican "see" in areas I travel alot as
>>> long as there are no obstacles. Maybe it depends on the daylight,
>>> sunlight, season and stress level.
>>>
>>> And if people with partial sight don't need guide dogs, maybe we don't
>>> need to learnBraille either.
>>>
>>> That said, I'm learning Braille and am glad to hear GDF and other
>>> schools are open to people with remaining vision based on the individual
>>> situation.
>>>
>>> I don't object to your concerns and question of people with partial
>>> sight using guide dogs Robert. However, the way you went about it was
>>> generalized and not very diplomatic.
>>>
>>> Brenda
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> '
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/30/2012 5:44 PM, Tami Kinney wrote:
>>>> Robert,
>>>>
>>>> Well, I have RP and have been legally blind since 1999. Had it not
>>>> been for my spouse, whom I finally had to just divorce for several
>>>> reasons, I would have applied for a guide then, once I learned cane
>>>> travel, which I ended up having to learn on my own. However, by the
>>>> numbers I did qualify. I needed a cane, thus I needed a dog.
>>>>
>>>> The one program that I did follow through with, just to see what
>>>> happened, decided somehow that I have really great vision and can read
>>>> street signs. Therefore, I do not need a guide dog, according to them.
>>>>
>>>> Um... First of all, that was certainly not true by 2006. Also, the
>>>> ability to read street signs -- even if I had, in fact, possessed that
>>>> ability -- seems to me pretty, um, something. Think about it.
>>>>
>>>> Still, I had decided by that point that I wasn't that interested in
>>>> putting up with that sort of attitude, and some things in my life had
>>>> changed. So I got a poodle puppy and trained her myself. She is now
>>>> 5.5 and an excellent working guide. I do not think of her as
>>>> self-trained but as owner-trained.
>>>>
>>>> I think it is fair to say that for me and my guide, the percentage of
>>>> program trained dogs over owner-trained dogs that cause problems for
>>>> us is, well, one hundred percent. I have met and worked around other
>>>> owner-trained dogs, but there has been zero problem because of either
>>>> dog. Every guide dog that has caused difficulty with my owner-trained
>>>> guide is program-trained by a certified trainer.
>>>>
>>>> When my dog was very young, she did have difficulty adjusting to being
>>>> around other dogs, so she did cause problems. We worked on that and
>>>> now she does not. The problems she had when she was young began at her
>>>> first exposure to other working guides. A program-trained dog growled
>>>> and lunged at her outside an elevator, then again in the elevator. A
>>>> short while later, that same dog repeated the behavior because we were
>>>> unable to avoid passing the pair. Another program-trained dog at that
>>>> same short event brought his handler close enough that the man would
>>>> have tripped over her if she hadn't jumped out of the way. He nearly
>>>> tripped over me another time walking by where I was sitting.
>>>>
>>>> So, she was pretty uptight around other guides for quite a while, and
>>>> it took a lot of work with her to keep her from being ruined, since I
>>>> won't have a working guide that is that reactive to other guides. So
>>>> those first program-trained guides we met nearly cost me all the
>>>> training I'd put into my dog. They caused me and my owner-trained pup
>>>> way more difficulty than any pet dog has. We made it through, and
>>>> Mitzi is fine around other guide and service dogs now, but it took a
>>>> lot of work for both of us to get there. For a long time, I thought we
>>>> wouldn't.
>>>>
>>>> She has saved my life many times. Not anyone else did that by giving
>>>> her to me already trained. Just her, following the training I gave her
>>>> and her own brains and good judgment.
>>>>
>>>> As a partial, I hear all the time when it comes to resources of all
>>>> types that my really great vision means I don't need whatever it is
>>>> and that by just asking I am somehow taking it from "blind people who
>>>> need it."
>>>>
>>>> This has cost me well into the 6 figures by now.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have really great vision, not by any vision exam I have had
>>>> really since before I crossed that magical numerical line that
>>>> qualified me as legally blind.
>>>>
>>>> It sounds to me, though, like you think I shouldn't get a guide dog
>>>> because I don't really need one. Or adaptive technology to return to
>>>> my vocation, I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything else I don't deserve in your opinion? /evil grin/
>>>>
>>>> I understand that it can be difficult to rectify differences. However,
>>>> it was the guide dog program that told you you just wanted the dog for
>>>> a pet. It was not a partial or an owner-trainer.
>>>>
>>>> Tami
>>>>
>>>> On 01/30/2012 01:46 PM, Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov wrote:
>>>>> Hi Marion:
>>>>>
>>>>> My wife has RP so I know all that. I can only say how I felt when a
>>>>> school in 1980 or 1981 had the balls to tell me I wanted the dog as a
>>>>> pet made me feel. I also think (I'm an old fox with a lot of years and
>>>>> experience now) that I saw a dog guide user with a day time drivers
>>>>> license. I'm not buying any of that but I'm just me:0). When Pilot
>>>>> took me on at 19 they basically saved my life. I'm a fast traveler and
>>>>> was a top notch cane user who taught others that were blind, but, I
>>>>> went
>>>>> to many many different places and knew in my heart that I needed four
>>>>> legged help.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can tell you many instances where "self trained dogs caused me a lot
>>>>> of problems, but, I think it is possible to train your own dog, if
>>>>> your
>>>>> a certified trainer.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "Marion Gwizdala"<blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>>> Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Date: 01/30/2012 03:16 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert,
>>>>> Individuals with retinitis pigmentosa may have fairly good
>>>>> acuity
>>>>> but
>>>>> their fields of vision may be seriously compromised. narrow fields of
>>>>> vision
>>>>> can distort depth perception so that individuals may not realize they
>>>>> are
>>>>> standing at the top of a flight of stairs or at the threshhold of a
>>>>> loading
>>>>> dock. Furthermore, since the periphery of the retina contains a high
>>>>> concentration of rods cells that are responsible for sight in dimly
>>>>> lit
>>>>> areas and the ability to see moving objects, those affected by this
>>>>> condition benefit from using a dog to travel safely under those
>>>>> conditions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From:<Harris.Robert at epamail.epa.gov>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 2:30 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure why somebody with very high vision would need a dog
>>>>>> guide
>>>>>> and have said so in school. Somebody and bodies were in training
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> me and could see faces, identify cars and see the surrounding area
>>>>>> pretty clearly for well over 50 yards? I'm an honest person and
>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>> hesitate to ask why the hell they were getting a dog. Answers off
>>>>> list
>>>>>> only but I was not happy& hope they didn't get a dog guide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are waiting lists for people who are very low partials&/or
>>>>>> totally blind to get a dog guide so its not just a cut and dry "get a
>>>>>> dog". there is a evaluation& process for reasons mentioned above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope I don't come across as brash but I have very strong feelings
>>>>> about
>>>>>> this topic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Larry D. Keeler"<lkeeler at comcast.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>>>>>> Dog Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: 01/30/2012 12:58 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>> Sent by: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good choice! For me it was a case of the more the merrier!.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Melissa Pasron"<fuzzylucky2021 at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:47 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for giving me a different perspective. I am really trying
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> weigh the options before I make a decision. My current deciding
>>>>> factor
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> that I currently have a pet dog and I don't know if I'll be ready to
>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> all the grooming and caring for two dogs. Not to mention if a guide
>>>>>> dog is
>>>>>>> right for me at the current moment. I think I'll just sit on the
>>>>> issue
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> a while and think about it. I don't want to go rushing into a
>>>>> decision
>>>>>>> without giving it a lot of thought.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, "Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)"
>>>>>>> <REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In making your decision, think about what you most want to do when
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> return home from being out someplace. Do you want to spend time
>>>>>> grooming
>>>>>>>> and caring for a dog, and doing it every single day, or would you
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> do something else.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I worked two dogs. Then I had my daughter and found that all I
>>>>> wanted
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> do was hang out with her, especially after being at work all day.
>>>>>> Taking
>>>>>>>> care of the dog became more of a chore then something I enjoyed.
>>>>> And,
>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> times it became very difficult to balance, baby wanted to eat or be
>>>>>> held,
>>>>>>>> dog needed to be brushed, you can't do both at the same time. And,
>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>> an obvious answer may be "get help with the baby" I enjoyed and
>>>>> still
>>>>>>>> enjoy taking care of her.
>>>>>>>> Think about how you'll feel when the dog wakes you up to go potty,
>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> you be okay with it or will it mentally wear you out as "one more
>>>>>> thing I
>>>>>>>> have to do".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What are your hobbies and are they comptible with a guide dog? You
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> always leave a cane, and a cane is easy to replace. Not true with a
>>>>>> dog.
>>>>>>>> I have had a couple access issues. I can tell you that when that
>>>>>> happens,
>>>>>>>> the very first thought that goes through your head is "This really
>>>>>> f***s
>>>>>>>> up my plans".
>>>>>>>> I'll add that I like dogs. They are neat animals, and I think have
>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> to teach us. At times I miss having one. On a day when the sun is
>>>>>>>> shinging, and it's 65 degrees, I'd love to take a guide dog and
>>>>>>>> walk
>>>>>> on a
>>>>>>>> bike path, as the feeling of you being in synch with a dog is
>>>>>> amazing.
>>>>>>>> Right now, I can't deal with the 24/7 nature of a guide dog. I
>>>>> can't
>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> it with a pet dog either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You can bring a guide dog anywhere, but you also need to plan on
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> with food, water, rest, appropriate supervision, things like that.
>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>> difficult to "just stay a bit longer" when you didn't plan on it
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> don't have food for your dog.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, the answer is that it really depends. I offer my perspective
>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> this list is made up of people who are currently using dogs and who
>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> doing it. It would be useful for you and others to have a
>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of melissa padron
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:35 PM
>>>>>>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Introduction and Questions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am new to this list so I though I would just start off with an
>>>>>>>> introduction and then some questions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, first of all, my name is Melissa and although I am not a
>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>> user I am a cane user. I'm in college pursuing a degree in
>>>>> psychology
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> I will be moving back to my hometown once I graduate. I'm
>>>>>>>> considered
>>>>>>>> legally blind, so I do have vision.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because of the condition I have, I was not taught to use a cane
>>>>> until
>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> senior year of high school. I actually had to fight in order to get
>>>>>> cane
>>>>>>>> lessons, but since then, I just about take my cane everywhere with
>>>>>> me. It
>>>>>>>> helps a lot more than using my vision and stressing my eyes....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, some questions:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am not considering getting a guide dog now but I do want to keep
>>>>> it
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> an option if I decide that it would help me in my travels. So my
>>>>>> question
>>>>>>>> is, what was ultimately you deciding factor in getting a guide dog?
>>>>>>>> What are some advantages and disadvantages in using a guide dog?
>>>>>>>> For those of you who have vision, did you encounter problems with
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> guide dog schools saying that a guide dog would not benefit you
>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>> you have "too much" vision?
>>>>>>>> Ultimately, this is my greatest fear. I'm scared of encountering
>>>>>>>> criticism by guide dog schools and "blindness professionals" about
>>>>>>>> whether a guide dog would benefit me or not. A lot of people with
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> condition function well without a cane or a dog so would this be
>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> against me if I were to apply?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am looking forward to hearing your responses and advice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Melissa
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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